Check6Viper

I guess I don't understand what you want. You are saying that 3800/5000 (76%) pilots having a BLG +/- 8 hours is not a level enough playing field because the remaining pilots can potentially fly more?

HvypurplePylot

I remember flying with a captain right after I got off IOE and he told me the sob story of 4a2b when he had to sell one of his daughters 3 horses.

Noworkallplay

Ok lets start talking facts. Below is the 4.a.2.b language in the 2006 contract:

The minimum bid period guarantee shall be reduced to a minimum of 48/60 CH before any pilot is furloughed. At least a full bid period must follow the announcement of this action. This provision shall only be used to prevent or delay a furlough.


The language was then changed to this in the 2015 CBA:

b. If the System Wide Average Metric (SAM) falls below 68/85/102 CH for two consecutive bid periods, unless otherwise agreed to by the Association, the Company shall employ the measures set out in Section 4.A.2.b.i.
i. The Company and the Association shall agree to the sequence and extent of the following:
(a) Offer voluntary leaves of absences in certain crew positions as determined by the Company;

(b) To an extent determined by the Company, consider an early retirement incentive as provided in Section 23.C.;

(c) Administer Section 25.L.6. (Make-Up), system-wide, such that a pilot will not be eligible for a make-up assignment unless he has at greater than a zero (i.e., at least 0:01) CH bank balance;

(d) Reduce the BLG limit found in Section 25.L.8. (Trading with Open Time), system-wide, from +12 CH to +6 CH;

(e) If not already employed prior to Section 4.A.2.b. being triggered, limit the construction of carryover TAFB into the subsequent bid period as follows:
(1) In crew positions whose average BLG is below 68/85/102 CH, domestic carryover shall be limited to 48 hours TAFB; and

(2) In crew positions whose average BLG is below 68/85/102 CH, international carryover shall be limited such that no more than 2% of total CH in any bid period package shall be attributable to carryover flying in excess of 168 hours TAFB.
ii. The application of Section 4.A.2.b. shall cease when the SAM climbs above 70/87/105 CH for two consecutive, non-peak bid periods, or as otherwise agreed by the Company and the Association.
c. If the System Wide Average Metric (SAM) has fallen below 64/80/96 CH for two consecutive bid periods, notwithstanding the application of Section 4.A.2.b., the minimum bid period guarantee shall be reduced to a minimum of 54/68/81 CH. For the bid periods during which Section 4.A.2.c. is implemented, unless otherwise agreed to by the Association, the following shall apply:
i. The measures provided in Section 4.A.2.b., except for 4.A.2.b.i.(e) which shall not be applicable;

ii. At least 85% of all lines, system wide, shall be constructed so that such lines are no more than 13 CH (17 CH in a 5-week bid period, or 22 CH in a 6-week bid period) greater than the lowest paid regular line;

iii. At least 95% of all lines, system wide, shall be constructed so that such lines are no more than 16 CH (20 CH in a 5-week bid period, or 25 CH in a 6-week bid period) greater than the lowest paid regular line;

iv. Regular and secondary lines for crew positions in which there are fewer than 100 active pilots who are available for line flying are excluded from the calculations and constraints set forth in Section 4.A.2.c.ii. and iii. above;

v. In any bid period when the average BLG is less than 64 CHs (81 in a 5 week bid period, or 96 in a 6 week bid period) in a crew position, the Company shall construct reserve lines in that crew position with a minimum of 1 less reserve day than allowed per Section 25.D.3. In any bid period when the average BLG is less than 59 CHs (76 in a 5 week bid period, or 92 in a 6 week bid period) in a crew position, the Company shall construct reserve lines in that crew position with a minimum of 2 less reserve days than allowed per Section 25.D.3. For purposes of this paragraph, the calculation of BLG for a crew position shall not include lines that are more than 16 CH (20 CH in a 5 week bid period, or 25 CH in a 6 week bid period) greater than the lowest paid regular line, system wide;

vi. The Company may establish a Buy-Up Value (BUV) above 54/68/81 CH in order to comply with Section 4.A.2.c.ii. and iii.;

vii. Publish a System Bid to rebalance staffing among the crew positions in the Company’s fleets;

viii. There shall be no volunteer flying;

ix. Employ other measures as agreed upon by the Company and Association;

x. Unless otherwise agreed by the Association, if the SAM has fallen below 56/70/84 CH for two consecutive bid periods, the Company shall institute a Maximum Line Value (MLV) as described in Section 4.A.6. below. When the SAM meets or exceeds 64/80/96 for two non-peak consecutive bid periods, MLV shall cease to apply;

xi. If the SAM meets or exceeds 66/82/99 CH for two non-peak consecutive bid periods, the minimum bid period guarantee shall return to the normal limits set forth in Section 4.A.1. in the following bid period, though the provisions of Section 4.A.2.b. may still be applicable. Nothing in this paragraph shall restrict the ability of the Company to otherwise exit Section 4.A.2.b. or c.; and

xii. If the Company hires a pilot(s) and adds the pilot(s) to the Master Seniority List, other than pursuant to a court order or arbitration award, the Company shall exit Section 4.A.2.b. effective with the first day of the bid period immediately following the Date of Hire.

Notice at the top it say the company and the association must agree to the sequence of the events below.
So you be the judge. Did this not add equality. Did this not add value for other measures to be used prior to implementation. Did this not add limits and cap pickups?

The funny thing is its all available on the union website.

golfandfly

Again.. misinformed. This was added as an LOA after we were still in 4.A.2.b. It made it only minimally better. I sure would hate to have the variable plan when wages were cut significantly. Not many pancakes woukd have been earned during this timeframe. You’re delusional if you don’t think the company will use this section again when we have a large downturn in business.

golfandfly

Once again, you are wrong. This was from an LOA negotiated while we were still under 4.A.2.b. It was inserted into the contract after 2015. It was already part of our CBA.

Noworkallplay

Thats my point it was after the initial 4.a.2.b. It was a huge improvement and added to the next contract. But remember all we have done is given stuff up. I’m fully informed. More than most who have been on property for 20 plus years.

Go work on your golf game because you are bad at this lying thing. You constantly paint a picture that all we have done is take concessions which couldn’t be further from the truth.

golfandfly

Dude.. it was an LOA. A legally binding part of the contract. They just inserted the LOA into the body of the contract in 2015. Are you really this dumb?

Noworkallplay

OMG we are both saying the same thing. Was it not an improvement? Just answer that question. You cant even talk facts without getting off track. Just debate merit and stop with the sidetracking.

Heck you even sidetracked the retirement discussion thread into a 4.a.2.b discussion. Stay focused

golfandfly

The point was that if your wages are cut (such as 4.A.2b), you’d earn a lower retirement benefit under the variable plan. Chances are that it wouldn’t effect your benefit under a FAE or a well designed FDA pension. Try to keep up!

If you’d ever listen to anyone, we’ve worked under the 4.A.2.c rules. While it was a minimal improvement from the previous rules, they still sucked really bad. Try asking someone that was actually working here at the time.

pinseeker

I'm guessing that you weren't here during 4a2b.

Tell me if you think this is a level playing field.

You get realigned from your wide body FO seat to the 757 FO seat. The company has determined that it is more cost effective to overman the 757 FO seat. They overman it in such a way that the average BLG is 52 hours. They buy up those lines to 54 hours. In the mean time, ANC, IND, LAX, and HKG all have average BLG's of 73+ hours with high lines of 80 hours. Would you take your 54 hour line and be happy? Would you tell everyone how level the playing field is when it comes to shared pain during a downturn? This would be allowed under our current contract.

If you don't think the company would overman a lower paying seat during 4a2c, just ask some of the pilots that were excessed from the MD11 FO seat to the 727 SO seat.