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Old 10-02-2015, 01:43 AM   #1  
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Default $40/$80 seat upgrade

I have two questions about the $40/$80 seat upgrade. Have you heard any answers or deliberation on this?

1. If a pilot is not deviating, can it be reimbursed? Or is it out of pocket if he charges it in that case? A deviating pilot can expense it against his bank, I think.

2. If you are eligible for Business Class on an international trip and choose Coach to stay within your bank, then closer to the day of travel you are offered an upgrade to Business for $500 extra, this wouldn't prevent you using the credit card online to upgrade yourself to Business, would it? Without paying $460 yourself.

Assume, for the sake of argument, that if you'd had Global Travel do it, you'd have been legal, but much more expensive. This is a legit situation.

Thanks

3. Deviation Options and Qualifying Expenses Subject to the limitations and reporting provisions in Section 8.C.4. and C.5. (below), a pilot'ís air travel, train travel, surface transportation, hotel use, parking and non-taxable per diem are allowable/reimbursable expenses as provided in this paragraph. a. Air Travel i. In the following circumstances, air travel expenses are allowable/reimbursable: (a) to or from a pilot'ís base to position to/from a scheduled assignment. (b) deviation from scheduled deadhead travel. (c) deviation from scheduled deadhead travel between a pilot's base and training conducted away from his base. ii. Air travel expenses shall be limited to the accepted fare for coachapplicable fare (as determined in accordance with Section 8.C.2.a.) for the class unless of service for which the deviation flight travel would otherwise qualify for a higher class of service under Section 8.A.4.b under Section 8.A.5. iii. Seat selection fees (e.g., Southwest Business Select, Delta Economy Comfort, United Economy Plus), provided the pilot charges the fee(s) to his Company issued travel card (receipts required regardless of amount). Such fees shall be limited to the greater of: (a) $40 per flight segment; or (b) $80 per positioning sequence (i.e., front-end, mid-trip, or backend).
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Old 10-02-2015, 04:49 AM   #2  
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If a pilot is not deviating it can be used if he has money in his bank, current practice. If the trip qualifies for a higher class of service and you pay for a higher class of service you will be reimbursed assuming you have bank to cover it. Note the exceptions listed are not a higher class of service, if you pay for a scoobie snack while flying coach you would not be reimbursed for that either.

This assumes that ALPA is willing to fight to defend current practices whether this TA passes or not. A big assumption.
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Old 10-02-2015, 04:53 AM   #3  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PolicyWonk View Post
I have two questions about the $40/$80 seat upgrade. Have you heard any answers or deliberation on this?

1. If a pilot is not deviating, can it be reimbursed? Or is it out of pocket if he charges it in that case? A deviating pilot can expense it against his bank, I think.

2. If you are eligible for Business Class on an international trip and choose Coach to stay within your bank, then closer to the day of travel you are offered an upgrade to Business for $500 extra, this wouldn't prevent you using the credit card online to upgrade yourself to Business, would it? Without paying $460 yourself.

Assume, for the sake of argument, that if you'd had Global Travel do it, you'd have been legal, but much more expensive. This is a legit situation.

Thanks

3. Deviation Options and Qualifying Expenses Subject to the limitations and reporting provisions in Section 8.C.4. and C.5. (below), a pilot'ís air travel, train travel, surface transportation, hotel use, parking and non-taxable per diem are allowable/reimbursable expenses as provided in this paragraph. a. Air Travel i. In the following circumstances, air travel expenses are allowable/reimbursable: (a) to or from a pilot'ís base to position to/from a scheduled assignment. (b) deviation from scheduled deadhead travel. (c) deviation from scheduled deadhead travel between a pilot's base and training conducted away from his base. ii. Air travel expenses shall be limited to the accepted fare for coachapplicable fare (as determined in accordance with Section 8.C.2.a.) for the class unless of service for which the deviation flight travel would otherwise qualify for a higher class of service under Section 8.A.4.b under Section 8.A.5. iii. Seat selection fees (e.g., Southwest Business Select, Delta Economy Comfort, United Economy Plus), provided the pilot charges the fee(s) to his Company issued travel card (receipts required regardless of amount). Such fees shall be limited to the greater of: (a) $40 per flight segment; or (b) $80 per positioning sequence (i.e., front-end, mid-trip, or backend).
I read it as those $40/$80 are scheduled expenses. In other words, not from deviation bank. Somewhat like the baggage charge. But, my plain reading of the contract has been wrong before.

The, at gate, or at check in upgrade payment of $500 when you're deviating. I've done that without issue from my deviation bank.
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Old 10-02-2015, 11:01 AM   #4  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PolicyWonk View Post
I have two questions about the $40/$80 seat upgrade. Have you heard any answers or deliberation on this?

1. If a pilot is not deviating, can it be reimbursed? Or is it out of pocket if he charges it in that case? A deviating pilot can expense it against his bank, I think.

2. If you are eligible for Business Class on an international trip and choose Coach to stay within your bank, then closer to the day of travel you are offered an upgrade to Business for $500 extra, this wouldn't prevent you using the credit card online to upgrade yourself to Business, would it? Without paying $460 yourself.

Assume, for the sake of argument, that if you'd had Global Travel do it, you'd have been legal, but much more expensive. This is a legit situation.

Thanks

3. Deviation Options and Qualifying Expenses Subject to the limitations and reporting provisions in Section 8.C.4. and C.5. (below), a pilot'ís air travel, train travel, surface transportation, hotel use, parking and non-taxable per diem are allowable/reimbursable expenses as provided in this paragraph. a. Air Travel i. In the following circumstances, air travel expenses are allowable/reimbursable: (a) to or from a pilot'ís base to position to/from a scheduled assignment. (b) deviation from scheduled deadhead travel. (c) deviation from scheduled deadhead travel between a pilot's base and training conducted away from his base. ii. Air travel expenses shall be limited to the accepted fare for coachapplicable fare (as determined in accordance with Section 8.C.2.a.) for the class unless of service for which the deviation flight travel would otherwise qualify for a higher class of service under Section 8.A.4.b under Section 8.A.5. iii. Seat selection fees (e.g., Southwest Business Select, Delta Economy Comfort, United Economy Plus), provided the pilot charges the fee(s) to his Company issued travel card (receipts required regardless of amount). Such fees shall be limited to the greater of: (a) $40 per flight segment; or (b) $80 per positioning sequence (i.e., front-end, mid-trip, or backend).
Did you send into the ALPA question bank? That would seem to be the best place to start with questions like this. Assuming that you pay dues and have access to the FDX ALPA web page.
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Old 10-02-2015, 12:24 PM   #5  
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Did you send into the ALPA question bank? That would seem to be the best place to start with questions like this. Assuming that you pay dues and have access to the FDX ALPA web page.
I've sent in three questions, over a week ago, two have yet to be answered. And, the other one was posted on the Q&A, but the response was not an answer to the question I asked. Much like when someone asks a politician a question...And their response doesn't answer the question posed.
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Old 10-02-2015, 12:43 PM   #6  
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I read it as those $40/$80 are scheduled expenses. In other words, not from deviation bank. Somewhat like the baggage charge. But, my plain reading of the contract has been wrong before.

The, at gate, or at check in upgrade payment of $500 when you're deviating. I've done that without issue from my deviation bank.
Thanks Raptor.

I hope you are right. That's why I asked about the non deviator. Is it only available out of the bank? Or is it separate from bank. Or is it a freebie for a non deviator but comes out of the bank of a deviator. If it's scheduled it shouldn't be bank dependent.

I've also upgraded at the gate successfully or online. I doubt they'd use this new language or limit to diminish that practice. But we've all read things differently than arbitrators. And the language lacks precision and enough examples to clarify the ambiguity.
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Old 10-02-2015, 01:05 PM   #7  
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[QUOTE=FDXLAG;1983839]If a pilot is not deviating it can be used if he has money in his bank, current practice.

Thanks FDXLAG.

This would not constitute much of a win if it is current practice.

I haven't explored this portion of the envelope. Are you sure it is current practice? I suspect you are right, by the way.

Raptor is inclined to think it's not bank dependant. I wonder if that's what constitutes the win? That this new benefit won't come out of our bank; deviator or non-deviator?

Although 2cylinderdriver wishes I'd asked the question elsewhere, I'm glad I asked it here. There are some really observant individuals on this forum.

The non-individuals also have a lot to add. And they add, and add, and add.
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Old 10-02-2015, 02:15 PM   #8  
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Originally Posted by PolicyWonk View Post

Thanks FDXLAG.

This would not constitute much of a win if it is current practice.

I haven't explored this portion of the envelope. Are you sure it is current practice? I suspect you are right, by the way.

Raptor is inclined to think it's not bank dependant. I wonder if that's what constitutes the win? That this new benefit won't come out of our bank; deviator or non-deviator?

Although 2cylinderdriver wishes I'd asked the question elsewhere, I'm glad I asked it here. There are some really observant individuals on this forum.

The non-individuals also have a lot to add. And they add, and add, and add.
All things are generally bank dependent because if you don't have the bank you cant charge it. What is new is an ability to carry over some money from month to month. If you are a non commuter it would not surprise me to have zero in your bank, so the $40 fee would come out of your own pocket eventually.
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Old 10-02-2015, 02:31 PM   #9  
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All things are generally bank dependent because if you don't have the bank you cant charge it. What is new is an ability to carry over some money from month to month. If you are a non commuter it would not surprise me to have zero in your bank, so the $40 fee would come out of your own pocket eventually.
I don't read it that way. It's like airport departure fees. In fact, the seat selection fees and airport departure fees are side by side in this section of the contract. The company pays for them whether you deviate or not and airport departure fees don't come out of deviation bank. When you file a FOX report, go to out of pocket, scheduled expense, and you will find airport departure taxes, baggage, etc as available selections within the scheduled drop down.

Oddly, though, baggage fees aren't mentioned in this section of the TA. They are in section 5.A.7 when excess was crossed out. I guess it required less ink to put it in 5.A.7 than in section 8! They were added by FCIF some time back and are available as Scheduled expenses.

Some airlines are selling a package of services, like expedited screening lane, priority boarding, seat selection, bundled together. The TA is silent on this as the subheading says simply "seat selection fees".
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Old 10-02-2015, 04:11 PM   #10  
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Raptor needs to put out Cliff notes on deviating when this process is concluded. I hope you'll consider doing that.

The fact that there is disagreement between you on how this is to be interpreted commends tighter language with multiple examples.

Thank you both.
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