Flytolive

That is the problem. You offer no respect for those like Dubinsky who have made our profession worth having, but expect people to respect you and your naive solutions while you attack pilot unions.

How would you get airline managements to use and pay for the union's flight training? How would you get the FAA, that is bought and paid for by airline management, to certify this training? In light of those obstacles how would you finance the startup costs? Details please.

RI830

Keep the popcorn coming. I see 10+ pages of this back n forth.

KTM Rider

B727DRVR,

Very well said! Thank you!

Bonanzer

Rick Dubinsky and the airline division did republic very wrong during are negotiations years ago. Since then they have left us alone and I’ve been happy with my representation. Voting out a union for completely non union is madness.

Route66

Managements not perfect. Rick is not god. His advocacy for the United pilots for them and not for the US Air pilots was short sighted. That was bad.

https://www.nytimes.com/2002/02/17/m...-thin-air.html

I’ve read flying the line vol. 1 & 2. The period you speak off was 1980 to 2000. The industry was changing. The companies were adapting. Your dad was in a different period, not that I don’t respect and envy him. Sure, BEFORE deregulation and 9/11 things were different. But NOT NOW. The pendulum is swinging and labor unions are coming up short. Dubinsky may have been good for the few, he got contracts pre-911 but THOSE DAYS HAVE GONE.

I’ve seen it changing and it will continue to change. That was a very good response. I respect that. But THAT WAS HISTORY. The saying “those whom forget history are doomed to repeat it” is apperpo here. But changes are happening where history doesn’t address it. The Dubinsky’s and the Hall’s haven’t learned new tricks.

The shortage of pilots today because of high costs of training and the 1500 hour ATP (captain) rule is exerting downward pressure on the industry. Many COMPANIES are initiating training loans for pilots. Why couldn’t ALPA come up with training programs? Why doesn’t ALPA go to the schools and advertise the nobility of the profession?

Why doesn’t ALPA “brand” training products like soap and cars. ALPA approved pilots sounds like a winner. Like it or not, the same ole same ole isn’t going to cut it.

Thanks for the tour down memory lane, though.

Route66

FLIGHTLINE Fall 2003
BY GREGG OVERMAN, APA COMMUNICATIONS DIRECTOR

As APA turns 40, Captain Lyons reminisces

One of the three founding APA members, Captain Richard “J.R.” Lyons served as the union's first Vice President and second President.

THIS YEAR MARKS the 40th anniversary of the founding of the Allied Pilots Association. Of the three founding APA members – Captains Paul Atkins, Richard “J.R.” Lyons and Nick O'Connell – Captain Lyons is the only one still living. He served as APA's original Vice President and its second President.

Captain Lyons learned to fly in 1940 while attending the University of Michigan. He later taught acrobat programs and was a test pilot on B-24s at Willow Run. Hired by American Airlines in late 1943, Captain Lyons was given company seniority in January 1944. He earned a Distinguished Service Award from American Airlines in March of 1945. The Award states: “Radioed circumstances and then landed aircraft practically out of control after being damaged in a mid-air collision over Saline, Michigan — December 24, 1944.” Having recently celebrated his 83rd birthday, Captain Lyons remains a keen observer of APA, American Airlines and the industry at large from his Hayward, California home. We caught up with him recently.

Flightline: Why did you and your colleagues believe that creating an independent union was in the best interests of the pilots of American Airlines? Captain Lyons: “So that we would have more control over our own destiny. ALPA refused to sign a contract which had been agreed to by our Master Executive Council, the Company and the Flight Engineers group.”

Flightline: Do you believe these reasons remain valid today? Captain Lyons: “Yes. Why should we get back in the barrel?”

Flightline: Did you ever have any second thoughts about leaving ALPA and creating APA? Captain Lyons: “No.”

Flightline: Describe what APA was like in the beginning. Captain Lyons: “It was tough until money started coming in through contributions and later by assessment. Many wives and pilot volunteers helped make possible a frugal beginning. “The new Board of Directors set up the bylaws insisting on new and better democracy. APA was a reality and authorization-to-act cards were sent out. The result was an overwhelming ‘yes.' “Five of us were expelled from ALPA for life (Captains Paul Atkins, Bob Guba, Joe Garvey, Nick O'Connell and Lyons). ALPA took us to court — we won. “American Airlines recognized APA as bargaining agent and signed our contract on July 9, 1963, although National Mediation Board official certification would not be given until November 13. “More details of these events can be found in my book, Birth of APA (editor's note: Captain Lyons' book can be found on the APA Web Site by clicking on the ‘About APA' tab on the Member's Home Page.) “We had many pleasant relationships with American Airlines that lasted for many years. Pilots were proud and loyal — we loved American Airlines. There was mutual respect. We are married, so as to protect our seniority.”


Flightline: What do you consider some of the high points of your experience as a labor leader? Captain Lyons: “What I remember from the past: a close relationship with ALPA President Dave Behncke in elevating the co-pilot status and setting the stage for reduced hours in APA; the 75-hour max; solving the FE dilemma (tripartite); various negotiations, in particular the 1965 contract, which was far superior to anything else in the industry; building our pensions; improving pilots' working conditions; and being APA President.”

Flightline: What do you consider your biggest disappointments? Captain Lyons: “None before my retirement (only the time that was sometimes required to get things done). We fought hard for what was right for pilots. Won some, lost some.”

Flightline: What do you think the biggest changes are in American Airlines and the industry overall compared with the 1960s and 1970s? Captain Lyons: “Retirements of C.R. Smith and Marion Sadler; deregulation; changes in management's attitude; American Eagle; mergers; international flying; the introduction of Regional Jets; much hiring. American Airlines grew big and so did we.”

Flightline: What qualities do you believe are required in order for an APA National Officer to be effective? Captain Lyons: “Toughness. Also, not just any specific individual qualities, but the latitude to act as President. T o have the ability to bring pilots together in unity. “I have studied the latest APA Constitution and Bylaws and Policy Manual, compared to the original bylaws. I can't imagine anyone would want the job. He would have to bring about consensus and cohesion with the Board of Directors. Our original concepts, principles and spirit of purpose would have allowed that. “We went out and talked to the pilots in the field.”

Flightline: What advice would you give to the APA leadership today? Captain Lyons: “Officers were members of the Negotiating Committee, the President was on all committees and monitored all expenses. We didn't have closed sessions of

the Board, and there wasn't any need for a parliamen-tarian. American Airlines needed reorganization. Perhaps we do, too. “Above all, talk to the pilots — they are the ones who elected you. “The pilots of American Airlines did a great service on behalf of all pilots in helping to prevent the airline's bankruptcy. When the membership speaks, listen.”

Shortly after the September 11, 2001 terrorist attacks, Captain Lyons sent in the following message entitled “The American Family.” We have included it as a postscript to the interview.

Back in 1934, our pilots were by far the most together of any other group. They kept ALPA strong. The first ALPA contract was signed with AAL in 1939. Over the years, there have been many quarrels with AAL: the eight-hour dispute, the jet introductions, the '58-'59 strike, the FE problems, leaving ALPA, and many Section 6 negotiations. The AAL pilots always stood fast and together in a conciliatory way through many problem times while maintaining our principles. It was for preservation. That APA approach in a prudent manner proved successful for years. Today, APA has problems, the industry has problems. What about the future? Are the pilots of AAL still together? Will American Airlines still be #1? Wouldn't it be great to have a family home to return to?

The AAL family needs you together. J.R. Lyons November 14, 2001

So tell me again. Why did American pilots leave ALPA if it was so great? Is Dick Lyons a POS?

Route66

BTW, why DID your dad LEAVE ALPA? Why did the APA approve B scale? Why did APA staple TWA pilots (who were ALPA)? I can go on and on as well. I’m sure you love your dad. He was perfect. Ive seen more mergers and more pilot greed against each other then you probably have. It goes on now. So tell me how that helps the junior guys in all this?

blueskies8

Deflect all you want. You said Rick was bad for United and worse for the teamsters. He proved you wrong and you have nothing to counter.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

PW535A

Route 66 - you clearly have a beef with the IBT, which is fine. The rest of us, including APA, never decertified a union. We may have switched representatives but never threw the baby out with the bath water. You are correct, self interest drives both unions and the anti-union sentiment of the 318 at Flexjet. The difference is, FJ won't ever make any gains without a union. The Woelke's of that world and a handful of "committed" employees will until you are no longer useful. The rest of your pilots will suffer.

Route66

Here, let me shorten your response: you say tomato, I say tomatoe.....