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Old 05-30-2006, 04:25 AM
  #11  
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here is another question.... this is hypothetical though

if i am a private pilot and ONLY have Piper Warrior and Arrow time, can I act as PIC of a Cessna 172 and be the sole manipulator of the flight controls?
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Old 05-30-2006, 06:08 AM
  #12  
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Originally Posted by UConnQB14

if i am a private pilot and ONLY have Piper Warrior and Arrow time, can I act as PIC of a Cessna 172 and be the sole manipulator of the flight controls?
Absolutely. Remember, FARs and insurance are 2 completly different beasts. Although you may be LEGAL to act as PIC, you may not be covered by your insurance company. In other words, it may be perfectly legal, just not very smart.
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Old 05-30-2006, 08:55 AM
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Three distinct areas here -

1. PIC as defined in 14 CFR part 1.1 - ...has final authority and responsibility for the operation and safety of the flight... This is the qualified pilot who signs for the aircraft, i.e., on the rental agreement or has ownership or flight release, etc., and is designated as that pilot before or during the flight.

2. Safety pilot - a required crewmember under part 91.109(b)(1) and (2). Note nowhere in 91.109 does it say that person is PIC. Just that they have at least a PPL and are rated in category and class (no type rating required) and they have adequate vision. Part 61.51(e)(1)(iii) states a person may log PIC time when he..."is acting as pilot in command of an aircraft on which more than one pilot is required under...the regulations under which the flight is conducted" (in this case 91.109(b)). The FAA wrote this to allow for the logging of flight time by a pilot under various circumstances, of which being a safety pilot is one. But acting as PIC does not in any way relieve the pilot who is PIC responsible for the flight - part 1.1 - of his or her duties. They are two totally separate things. The FAA in written interpretations outside of the FAR's have stated that while a pilot is performing duties as a safety pilot he is acting as PIC for the purposes of 61.51, but not for the purposes of Part 1.1.

There is no requirement in 91.109(b)(1) for the person to hold high-performance and/or high altitude signoffs, again because you are not PIC (part 1.1), just a safety pilot.

3. Insurance requirements. May be anything. However, they usually apply to the PIC as defined in Part 1.1. So yes, one should check to be sure the policy covers simulated instrument flight with a safety pilot who meets the requirements of 91.109. The insurance company may have additional requirements for anyone in the role of a safety pilot for that aircraft.

One additional note. We've seen a lot of pilots coming to interviews recently with time logged as a safety pilot while building multi-engine time. There are a number of schools pushing this type of program. This is fine, just as long as it's logged correctly. We've seen a number of pilots logging the whole flight as a safety pilot, instead of just the portion of the flight in which the other pilot is under the hood. For example, if the total flight time is 2.0, then the safety pilot should only be logging in about 1.8 to 1.9. The taxi time, takeoff (unless it was performed under the hood), and landing are usually performed without the hood on, so you are not a safety pilot. We've also seen the safety pilot logging the landing. If you didn't make the landing, you can't log it. Which leads to the last problem...if you are a safety pilot building cross-country time for the purposes of your commercial certificate (that 50 hours of cross-country time) and you don't make the landing, then you can't log the cross-country time for that purpose (Part 61.1(b)(3)(ii)(B)). While your DPE at the time of your commercial checkride should catch this, we had one person come into the interview with this problem. He wasn't qualified to hold the commercial certificate because he was short the required cross-country time.

Last edited by WEACLRS; 05-30-2006 at 12:32 PM.
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Old 05-30-2006, 01:12 PM
  #14  
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Originally Posted by UConnQB14
here is another question.... this is hypothetical though

if i am a private pilot and ONLY have Piper Warrior and Arrow time, can I act as PIC of a Cessna 172 and be the sole manipulator of the flight controls?
Two separate issues. Any time you are "sole manipulator of the controls of an aircraft for which you are rated" (category, class, type, and sign-offs if necessary) you may log flight time as "pilot-in-command" - part 61.51(e)(1)(i).

This doesn't necessarily mean you are PIC as defined in part 1.1. To be that person you must..."(1) has final authority and responsibility for the operation and safety of the flight; (2) has been designated as pilot in command before or during the flight; and (3) hold the appropriate category, class, and type rating, if appropriate, for the conduct of the flight". This is the pilot who owns, signs the rental agreement, signs the flight release, etc. for the flight.

If you are the sole occupant of the aircraft, you are the sole manipulator and PIC in flight by default. If you are riding along with a rated pilot buddy who rented the aircraft, but you are flying the aircraft and you are rated, then you can "log" PIC time. However he is still the PIC responsible.

So to answer the question, "can you be PIC of a 172?". Sure, get a check-out and signed off for insurance purposes, rent the airplane, and go flying (you're PIC responsible - part 1.1). While you are doing your checkout with the instructor, you can log the time you're sole manipulator of the controls as "PIC" (part 61.51), but he is still "PIC responsible".
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Old 05-30-2006, 08:34 PM
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Originally Posted by WEACLRS
For example, if the total flight time is 2.0, then the safety pilot should only be logging in about 1.8 to 1.9. The taxi time, takeoff (unless it was performed under the hood), and landing are usually performed without the hood on, so you are not a safety pilot. We've also seen the safety pilot logging the landing. If you didn't make the landing, you can't log it.
Let's say my friend needs instrument proficency and I agree to act as his safety pilot. Let it be understood that I am a PPL and have been checked out in the airplane prior to the ride. He wants to fly holding patterns at night (no need for foggles right?) Would I be able to log NIGHT, INSTRUMENT (ACTUAL OR SIM?), and PIC?

Let's also say the flight lasted 2.0 hours, but I only acted as PIC for 1.8. Do I log the total time as 2.0 and PIC as 1.8..... OR do I log 1.8 as both total and PIC?

Sorry, I know this is getting technical.
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Old 05-30-2006, 09:55 PM
  #16  
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Originally Posted by WEACLRS
While your DPE at the time of your commercial checkride should catch this, we had one person come into the interview with this problem. He wasn't qualified to hold the commercial certificate because he was short the required cross-country time.
Not saying that I'm in the same boat (program was too structured *bleh*), but if a pilot was in that situation, how would you remedy it? Get the hours and take a 709? Or a regular checkride? Or could you get the hours and be qualified to hold the certificate from thence forth?
 
Old 05-31-2006, 04:25 PM
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4x4,

If your buddy wants to log time as flight by reference to instruments, he must use a view limiting device like a hood or foggles. The only time you can log is the time in which he is flying under the foggles. However, he is still the PIC because he is the sole manipulator of the controls. Since you are not flying by reference to instruments, and looking outside for traffic and terrain avoidance as a good safety pilot should be, you can not log any instrument time. I had a discussion with our POI on the subject. I have heard so many different interpretations of this rule that I wanted some clarity and this is what he basically said:

When acting as a safety pilot, you will only be able to log the total time, and as for PIC it will be however long you are the sole manipulator of the controls. Therefore, you might get .2 in a 1 hour flight if your buddy is really slow in putting his hood on.

Safety pilot time is pretty useless in my book because you're not getting much out of it. I usually don't log it but will gladly go up with anybody that needs an extra set of eyes and sign their logbook. The only time I log it is when I'm in a multi because that's the time that's hard to get. If you're working through your ratings with hopes of becomming a professional in the industry those four or five hours of safety pilot time can easily be made up in a good day of flight instruction (and that's PIC no matter what!).
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Old 05-31-2006, 08:53 PM
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Originally Posted by ranch4x4
Let's say my friend needs instrument proficency and I agree to act as his safety pilot. Let it be understood that I am a PPL and have been checked out in the airplane prior to the ride. He wants to fly holding patterns at night (no need for foggles right?) Would I be able to log NIGHT, INSTRUMENT (ACTUAL OR SIM?), and PIC?

Let's also say the flight lasted 2.0 hours, but I only acted as PIC for 1.8. Do I log the total time as 2.0 and PIC as 1.8..... OR do I log 1.8 as both total and PIC?

Sorry, I know this is getting technical.
Assumptions: Your friend rents/owns the aircraft (say a C-172) and the both of you decide before the flight he is PIC (part 1.1) and you are the safety pilot (part 91.109). Because he needs an instrument proficiency he is not IFR current and therefor the flight is conducted entirely in VMC.

You may log only the time that he is under the hood and the aircraft is in VMC (safety pilot is not required in IMC). If the flight is 2.0 total duration, at night, and he is under the hood for 1.7 of the 2.0, you may log 1.7 Total Duration of Flight, 1.7 Night, 1.7 Single Engine, and 1.7 PIC. This PIC time is not part 1.1 PIC time. It is PIC time the FAA allows toward certificates and ratings. But when you get to the airlines, they will most likely want you to deduct that time from your PIC total because is wasn't PIC time as defined in part 1.1. They will also most likely deduct any time you logged as "PIC" while receiving dual instruction, because your instructor was part 1.1 PIC, not you.

Something to note. There is no such column in most log books for "Total Time". That column we all use is "total duration of flight" with the emphasis on "flight". There is no definition in the 14 CFR's for "total time" and any time you log in "total duration of flight" must occur "in flight" (or taxi before flight with the intention of flight or at the completion of a flight - block to block). Time in ANY simulator or FTD, including full-motion level C and D does not count as "total duration of flight" and shouldn't be added in there.

Last edited by WEACLRS; 05-31-2006 at 09:11 PM.
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Old 05-31-2006, 09:01 PM
  #19  
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Originally Posted by DufusMcDufe
Not saying that I'm in the same boat (program was too structured *bleh*), but if a pilot was in that situation, how would you remedy it? Get the hours and take a 709? Or a regular checkride? Or could you get the hours and be qualified to hold the certificate from thence forth?
There's a story of an American Airlines captain that was transitioning to a new aircraft several years ago. At the time, the FAA was on a kick (still are) to review all log books for completion of the aeronautical requirements for all certificates and ratings. When the FAA inspector reviewed his logbooks, they found him short on some cross country requirement for the commercial. They "pulled" his ATP and Commercial, made him rent an airplane (the story is he rented a 172), fly the cross country, and then rescheduled his checkride for the transition. Whether this story is true or embellished, I don't know.

However, when it happened at our flight school, the checkride would stop, the missing aeronautical event would be completed, the checkride rescheduled, and on successful completion, all certificates and ratings restored. I think the FAA has been out covering the mistakes of DPE's with this "unofficial" policy. It happened to me. I was missing my instructor's signature for my two hour VFR night cross country for my Commercial. When I went for my CFI, it was caught before the checkride started when the DPE reviewed my logbook. I went out the next night, completed the flight with the instructor, rescheduled, and successfully passed my CFI. I was "warned" not to exercise the privileges of my commercial certificate until I completed the flight.

Last edited by WEACLRS; 05-31-2006 at 09:13 PM.
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Old 06-01-2006, 04:08 PM
  #20  
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Originally Posted by WEACLRS

You may log only the time that he is under the hood and the aircraft is in VMC (safety pilot is not required in IMC). If the flight is 2.0 total duration, at night, and he is under the hood for 1.7 of the 2.0, you may log 1.7 Total Duration of Flight, 1.7 Night, 1.7 Single Engine, and 1.7 PIC. This PIC time is not part 1.1 PIC time. It is PIC time the FAA allows toward certificates and ratings. But when you get to the airlines, they will most likely want you to deduct that time from your PIC total because is wasn't PIC time as defined in part 1.1. They will also most likely deduct any time you logged as "PIC" while receiving dual instruction, because your instructor was part 1.1 PIC, not you.
Great post, that's all the information I wanted. Now for a hypothetical question. If I log the 1.7 total, 1.7 night, 1.7 PIC and since there is no column labled "safety pilot" how would anyone know that it is indeed safety pilot time?

When I do go to log it, should I put "Acted as safety PIC for 1.7 hours for a 2.0 hour flight" in the remarks section?
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