680PCR

They do have what is known as "rolling rest". If you fly a 6 hour day and go to the hotel you are still technically on duty for another 8 hours (14). However if they have not called you at the end of the 14, you are still considered to have been in rest for those 8 hours in the hotel, hence they could call you out 2 hours later as you have had your 10 hours of rest. The only way around that would be to leave you at the airport for the 8 hours and then put you into a defined rest period....pick your poison. In my experience that very rarely happened most of the trips were scheduled for the next day, but there is always the possible recovery flight or pop up.

swedespeed

Hey, is that you P.R? Of so, welcome aboard.

Sailaway

CEFO, rolling rest is not black and white. Using the example above, you would only be off duty for 2 hours. How do you plan your sleep? That sucks. And 680, the big difference in the poison is that if you stayed at the airport, you would then have a full 10 hours rest.

FalconFlyer

You NJ guys can keep all that airport waiting time for yourselves... Besides, there aren't any recliners open in the crew lounges! No thanks.

680PCR

Hey Sweede yep it's me! Gotta go with Falcon on this one. I'm not saying it's perfect by any stretch and yes its hard to plan your rest and I'm not even sure if it meets the definition of "rest".....thats a different thread not going there. If you have a lot of short days it makes for a very dry 15 days if you know what I mean. Like I said, never actually happened to me, but it is always a possibility. The attitude to have on your rotation is they have me for 8 or 15 after that I'm off and sleep/eat when you can.

XOpilot

What you're really talking about is not having a predefined duty on time, and that sometimes can make it difficult to appropriately plan rest. However, If a crew member is tired or hasn't slept well, they should not accept the trip. The magic F word makes the issue moot. I'd much rather be flexible and relax at the hotel rather than sit crew rot at the FBO. If both the company and the crew are reasonable and are committed to not flying fatigued, this really isn't the issue so many Netjet's pilots try to make it out to be. Now if a company pushes pilots into doing foolish things, that's a different story. However, it's not the case here. We very often have a pretty good idea what we're doing the next day anyway.

Oh, and since you brought it up, maybe you can explain something to me? If the NJA crews are so well rested, why are they always snoring in the crew rooms? There is science behind rest and fatigue, and simply having 10 hours off out of 24 ignores Circadian Law and significantly falls short of ISBAO best practices regardless of whether you have a predetermined report time or not. Whether you agree or disagree, please do us a favor, and stop the self righteous preaching.

iPilot

I'm going to side with XOpilot with this. If you look at the numbers then, yes, they could pretty much call you at any point. Just like everything in life the worst-case scenario is a rarity. Chances of getting that pop-up trip after you've gotten to the hotel is almost zilch, and even if it does happen the chances of you being so fatigued you have to say no are even less.

XO seems to have learned that treating crews with respect yields better results than the alternative. If you're too tired, just say it and I have never heard it going beyond that from the XO pilots I've talked to. In fact it seems they are happy to hear you stand up for what's right (because, after all, nobody can really determine if you're fit to fly except for yourself).

Lately they've been so busy everyone has just maxed out their flying duty limits for the day and you're off the hook so this is all just an academic exercise anyway.

CEFO

Sure the possibility exists for you to get called anytime there are enough duty hours left in your day for the trip and there is no one else available. But that rarely happens, like the previous posters said we generally find out our movements the night before and once that days flying is done we go to the hotel. The rules are black and white though 14hrs duty and 10 hrs of flying and when the magic "f bomb" is dropped all hands are tied and your day is done. Not your average 135 operator here.

If planning your rest is the issue i have always planned for the worst case scenario being that after 10 hrs at the hotel you are fair game, so in that time REST UP and take it easy, any extra time on that is gravy. 99% of the time it works out in your favor. As mentioned, it beats the hell out of hanging at the fbo!

N5139

Does XO have a dedicated dispatch/flight planning office? Who files flight plans? Fuel loads, catering, etc.?


Just curious where it sits between the charter world (fltplan.com, baby!) and airlines (aerobat, single-engine analysis, etc.).

XOpilot

XO's SOC works directly with contracted licensed dispatchers to plan and file the flight plans. Senior Captains take turns being the duty officer for 24 hour shifts. The Duty Officers exercise operational control and issue releases for elevated risk score legs like mountain airports, international flights, short runways, low IFR, and long duty days. They double check flight plans, permits, performance etc and communicate directly with the flight crews to make sure everyone is happy and on the same page. If the duty officer (line pilot) doesn't sign off on a level 3 leg, the trip can't go unless the Chief Pilot or D.O. signs off on a level 4 which is the highest risk score and rarely happens. Both pilots would certainly have to want to do the trip for a level 4 to be issued, and the duty officers concerns would have to be mitigated or at least considered. Anyone can elevate a risk level for any reason, so there is no way for Client Services, Dispatch, or SOC to push an unsafe flight on a crew without getting a release from a line pilot who will talk to the crew. It makes it easy for pilots to say they're not comfortable with something, and ensures perspective from a senior pilot who is not in the heat of battle trying to get the job done. Not only does the Captain need to be aware of the elevated risk and accept the flight, he needs to convince the duty officer of how he will accomplish it safely. It's a pretty good and well respected system. The auditors certainly seem to like it.