To All Fractional Pilots
01-25-2013, 05:25 AM
#11
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Mar 2008
Position: B757 Ca, Retired.
Posts: 195
Having been in two different unions, one a small unaligned association at a regional and later ALPA (over 20 years), and having walked the picket lines in 1998 and was a key member of the Strike Committee I fee I am qualified to comment.
1) Up until ALPA aligned with the AFL-CIO it was the most respected labor group in the world. Any committee member could get an audience with any Congressman/Senator on short notice and labor relations were secondary to flight safety. Also, prior to alignment with the AFL-CIO; the President of ALPA was paid their company wages (IE; if you were a B-727 Captain, what is what you were paid), today, ALPA's President is paid more than $750k per year and most ALPA field office staff (office manager and secretaries) make more than what regional jet captains are paid.
2) ALPA (and the other groups) are very effective at legal defense of pilots in disputes with there companies and the FAA or NTSB.
3) Wages have been declining relative to inflation for ALPA members, but non-ALPA pilots have seen them maintain or increase relative to inflation.
4) From a cost benefit standpoint, many new pilots would be hard pressed to justify economically the cost of dues vs the benefits.
5) Most companies can prevent problems of having a working environment making pilots want to organize into a union by doing a few things; a) treat them as partners in the businesses success, b) pay competitive wages with reasonable benefits, c) provide a legal defense plan for the pilots that covers FAA enforcement actions and d) ensure competitive and affordable long term care and disability plans are available for the staff.
6) Most pilots can ensure they have long and successful careers if they will do a few things like avoiding outside of work legal trouble and always asking themselves if what they are doing at any given moment is in the customers and employers best interest?
This is not an all encompassing list, but covers many of the major issues I have seen in a 30+ year career.
I am not interested in the "Noble Intent" talking point. In realville, where the world actually lives, success has not been based on noble intent, but instead on actual results motivated by vested self interest. Any attempt to try and judge things based on "our good intentions" and not actual results shows a lack of understanding of basic economics and human nature.
1) Up until ALPA aligned with the AFL-CIO it was the most respected labor group in the world. Any committee member could get an audience with any Congressman/Senator on short notice and labor relations were secondary to flight safety. Also, prior to alignment with the AFL-CIO; the President of ALPA was paid their company wages (IE; if you were a B-727 Captain, what is what you were paid), today, ALPA's President is paid more than $750k per year and most ALPA field office staff (office manager and secretaries) make more than what regional jet captains are paid.
2) ALPA (and the other groups) are very effective at legal defense of pilots in disputes with there companies and the FAA or NTSB.
3) Wages have been declining relative to inflation for ALPA members, but non-ALPA pilots have seen them maintain or increase relative to inflation.
4) From a cost benefit standpoint, many new pilots would be hard pressed to justify economically the cost of dues vs the benefits.
5) Most companies can prevent problems of having a working environment making pilots want to organize into a union by doing a few things; a) treat them as partners in the businesses success, b) pay competitive wages with reasonable benefits, c) provide a legal defense plan for the pilots that covers FAA enforcement actions and d) ensure competitive and affordable long term care and disability plans are available for the staff.
6) Most pilots can ensure they have long and successful careers if they will do a few things like avoiding outside of work legal trouble and always asking themselves if what they are doing at any given moment is in the customers and employers best interest?
This is not an all encompassing list, but covers many of the major issues I have seen in a 30+ year career.
I am not interested in the "Noble Intent" talking point. In realville, where the world actually lives, success has not been based on noble intent, but instead on actual results motivated by vested self interest. Any attempt to try and judge things based on "our good intentions" and not actual results shows a lack of understanding of basic economics and human nature.
Last edited by F224; 01-25-2013 at 05:37 AM.
01-25-2013, 03:32 PM
#13
Banned
Joined APC: Oct 2010
Posts: 1,222
Originally Posted by UCLAbruins
I'm not a big fan of unions either and honestly I still don't know how I feel about'em
The Netjets pilot-job went from a stepping stone job to a career job. From the late 1990s to the early 2000s, there wasn't much diference between Netjets and a commuter airline... However by 2007-2008, Netjets was a better job than some of the major airlines... and the union had a lot to do with that and for that I am gratefull. (we have great QOL, descent pay, no commuting, free benefits, etc...)
My biggest problem with the union is that it is impossible to fire a bad employee and it is almost impossible to reward a good employee. We are all numbers, we're all the same under an organized system
Also sometimes the company finds itself in a bind, and you wanna help, but inorder to help, you have to break the contract... So you don't and the passenger gets screwed..
{Again, I have a good job because of a union, but sometimes I wanna go the extra mile and help the company so it survives, but i can't because I'm bound by a labor contract}
The Netjets pilot-job went from a stepping stone job to a career job. From the late 1990s to the early 2000s, there wasn't much diference between Netjets and a commuter airline... However by 2007-2008, Netjets was a better job than some of the major airlines... and the union had a lot to do with that and for that I am gratefull. (we have great QOL, descent pay, no commuting, free benefits, etc...)
My biggest problem with the union is that it is impossible to fire a bad employee and it is almost impossible to reward a good employee. We are all numbers, we're all the same under an organized system
Also sometimes the company finds itself in a bind, and you wanna help, but inorder to help, you have to break the contract... So you don't and the passenger gets screwed..
{Again, I have a good job because of a union, but sometimes I wanna go the extra mile and help the company so it survives, but i can't because I'm bound by a labor contract}
There is a heavy thickly painted line between pro union, and union fanatical... I believe going a little extra to help the company sometimes is perfectly acceptable. The fanaticals complain if there are 1 to few croutons in their salad and then grieve it... The union contract affords me the ability to say no without repurcussion., Which is a very important aspect IMO.
Unions in aviation are a near necesity when crap hits the fan at company "x"... Pilots, a large majority of the time, make a respectable living, and typically work fewer hours compared to office type workers.... Unfortunately, management usually sees this as a bad investment in time, so they can and will find ways to make a pilot more productive (less compensated) if the need arises economically.
01-25-2013, 06:21 PM
#14
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Mar 2011
Position: Left seat on a kite
Posts: 1,884
Originally Posted by F224
Having been in two different unions, one a small unaligned association at a regional and later ALPA (over 20 years), and having walked the picket lines in 1998 and was a key member of the Strike Committee I fee I am qualified to comment.
1) Up until ALPA aligned with the AFL-CIO it was the most respected labor group in the world. Any committee member could get an audience with any Congressman/Senator on short notice and labor relations were secondary to flight safety. Also, prior to alignment with the AFL-CIO; the President of ALPA was paid their company wages (IE; if you were a B-727 Captain, what is what you were paid), today, ALPA's President is paid more than $750k per year and most ALPA field office staff (office manager and secretaries) make more than what regional jet captains are paid.
2) ALPA (and the other groups) are very effective at legal defense of pilots in disputes with there companies and the FAA or NTSB.
3) Wages have been declining relative to inflation for ALPA members, but non-ALPA pilots have seen them maintain or increase relative to inflation.
4) From a cost benefit standpoint, many new pilots would be hard pressed to justify economically the cost of dues vs the benefits.
5) Most companies can prevent problems of having a working environment making pilots want to organize into a union by doing a few things; a) treat them as partners in the businesses success, b) pay competitive wages with reasonable benefits, c) provide a legal defense plan for the pilots that covers FAA enforcement actions and d) ensure competitive and affordable long term care and disability plans are available for the staff.
6) Most pilots can ensure they have long and successful careers if they will do a few things like avoiding outside of work legal trouble and always asking themselves if what they are doing at any given moment is in the customers and employers best interest?
This is not an all encompassing list, but covers many of the major issues I have seen in a 30+ year career.
I am not interested in the "Noble Intent" talking point. In realville, where the world actually lives, success has not been based on noble intent, but instead on actual results motivated by vested self interest. Any attempt to try and judge things based on "our good intentions" and not actual results shows a lack of understanding of basic economics and human nature.
1) Up until ALPA aligned with the AFL-CIO it was the most respected labor group in the world. Any committee member could get an audience with any Congressman/Senator on short notice and labor relations were secondary to flight safety. Also, prior to alignment with the AFL-CIO; the President of ALPA was paid their company wages (IE; if you were a B-727 Captain, what is what you were paid), today, ALPA's President is paid more than $750k per year and most ALPA field office staff (office manager and secretaries) make more than what regional jet captains are paid.
2) ALPA (and the other groups) are very effective at legal defense of pilots in disputes with there companies and the FAA or NTSB.
3) Wages have been declining relative to inflation for ALPA members, but non-ALPA pilots have seen them maintain or increase relative to inflation.
4) From a cost benefit standpoint, many new pilots would be hard pressed to justify economically the cost of dues vs the benefits.
5) Most companies can prevent problems of having a working environment making pilots want to organize into a union by doing a few things; a) treat them as partners in the businesses success, b) pay competitive wages with reasonable benefits, c) provide a legal defense plan for the pilots that covers FAA enforcement actions and d) ensure competitive and affordable long term care and disability plans are available for the staff.
6) Most pilots can ensure they have long and successful careers if they will do a few things like avoiding outside of work legal trouble and always asking themselves if what they are doing at any given moment is in the customers and employers best interest?
This is not an all encompassing list, but covers many of the major issues I have seen in a 30+ year career.
I am not interested in the "Noble Intent" talking point. In realville, where the world actually lives, success has not been based on noble intent, but instead on actual results motivated by vested self interest. Any attempt to try and judge things based on "our good intentions" and not actual results shows a lack of understanding of basic economics and human nature.
01-25-2013, 07:03 PM
#15
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: May 2011
Position: 737 CA
Posts: 949
I'll agree with F224...my airline experience pre-ALPA contract was FAR superior to post-contract. ALPA was a fact for me...CommutAir had voted them in prior to my hiring and I fell right in step with what the union guys were chanting...more money, better schedules, better benefits, etc.
What I found, post-contract, was a worse schedule, less money, and continued rah-rah'ing by our MEC and their supporters (the senior guys) about how great things were.
ALPA made me despise airline flying. I got into the polar opposite - a single pilot, single plane operation where I am responsible for every action, good or bad. I've never been happier. Better pay, better benefits, and no union. If I screw up, I answer for my own actions. I am accountable; I don't have to rely on some third party to 'protect my job' if I screw up.
I would walk away from aviation before I let another union take a dime of money I earned. And that's just sad.
What I found, post-contract, was a worse schedule, less money, and continued rah-rah'ing by our MEC and their supporters (the senior guys) about how great things were.
ALPA made me despise airline flying. I got into the polar opposite - a single pilot, single plane operation where I am responsible for every action, good or bad. I've never been happier. Better pay, better benefits, and no union. If I screw up, I answer for my own actions. I am accountable; I don't have to rely on some third party to 'protect my job' if I screw up.
I would walk away from aviation before I let another union take a dime of money I earned. And that's just sad.
01-25-2013, 08:45 PM
#16
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Mar 2008
Position: B757 Ca, Retired.
Posts: 195
Originally Posted by kingairfun
Good post, but I can tell you that you CAN go above and beyond to help.. I routinely showed earlier than planned, took a rental car farther than 150 miles, offered to drive owners some place if a rental car misshap occurred.. ETC etc... But the contract also allowed me to say no to the same things if I so choosed to.... I agree that some people should be let go but aren't... But that is pretty far down my list of concerns about the union/non-union debate..
There is a heavy thickly painted line between pro union, and union fanatical... I believe going a little extra to help the company sometimes is perfectly acceptable. The fanaticals complain if there are 1 to few croutons in their salad and then grieve it... The union contract affords me the ability to say no without repurcussion., Which is a very important aspect IMO.
Unions in aviation are a near necesity when crap hits the fan at company "x"... Pilots, a large majority of the time, make a respectable living, and typically work fewer hours compared to office type workers.... Unfortunately, management usually sees this as a bad investment in time, so they can and will find ways to make a pilot more productive (less compensated) if the need arises economically.
There is a heavy thickly painted line between pro union, and union fanatical... I believe going a little extra to help the company sometimes is perfectly acceptable. The fanaticals complain if there are 1 to few croutons in their salad and then grieve it... The union contract affords me the ability to say no without repurcussion., Which is a very important aspect IMO.
Unions in aviation are a near necesity when crap hits the fan at company "x"... Pilots, a large majority of the time, make a respectable living, and typically work fewer hours compared to office type workers.... Unfortunately, management usually sees this as a bad investment in time, so they can and will find ways to make a pilot more productive (less compensated) if the need arises economically.
01-26-2013, 04:10 PM
#17
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jul 2008
Posts: 824
One thing to remember: NO company started out with a union. Something in the management-employee relationship soured and pushed them to that point. Not all companies need a union, but many do.
For example, as badly as Mesa Airlines treats its pilots now, can you imagine what they'd do without any limits?
For example, as badly as Mesa Airlines treats its pilots now, can you imagine what they'd do without any limits?
01-26-2013, 05:02 PM
#18
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Apr 2007
Position: F/O- G-V/550
Posts: 1,163
Originally Posted by CA1900
One thing to remember: NO company started out with a union. Something in the management-employee relationship soured and pushed them to that point. Not all companies need a union, but many do.
For example, as badly as Mesa Airlines treats its pilots now, can you imagine what they'd do without any limits?
For example, as badly as Mesa Airlines treats its pilots now, can you imagine what they'd do without any limits?
About a year ago I flew BUR-HNL, by the time we landed in HNL, we had been on duty for 11 hrs.. A Falcon 2000 broke on the their way to the runway with passengers on board. They taxiied back to the FBO...
We volunteered to take the passengers to San Jose, but that would have put us over 16 hrs of duty, so the company declined our proposition, they instead chartered a Falcon 900.
I wish I had the freedom to do stuff like that without fear of backlash from the union, because i do want the company to suceed and ultimately survive
01-26-2013, 05:52 PM
#19
Banned
Joined APC: Oct 2010
Posts: 1,222
Originally Posted by F224
Not a question of going the extra mile, but one of service, to your employer and customer, it sounds like you "Get It". And by the way, I worked way more duty hours per month than almost any NWA front office worker or ramp/gate agent, but I was only paid for <80 flight hours per month. Don't let Ichans and Lorenzos mis-representation of flight hours apply to duty hours. And that was before my 40-60 hours per month of voluntary union service as the MEC Security Coordinator.
Luckily , my airline does some very easy long haul trips with very little duty time vs block time. So it's all good on my end
01-26-2013, 07:32 PM
#20
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Mar 2008
Position: B757 Ca, Retired.
Posts: 195
Originally Posted by CA1900
One thing to remember: NO company started out with a union. Something in the management-employee relationship soured and pushed them to that point. Not all companies need a union, but many do.
For example, as badly as Mesa Airlines treats its pilots now, can you imagine what they'd do without any limits?
For example, as badly as Mesa Airlines treats its pilots now, can you imagine what they'd do without any limits?
ALPA was totally incompetent in this case and only the employees private attorney was able to save him from it becoming a very bad situation.
The contract was a book a rules and not a book of suggestions. It is also a limitation on good customer service, along with inept management, the two usually go hand in hand.
I think for the most part (outside of air safety issues) most unions have out lived their usefulness. In this day and age, their are plenty of Federal agencies that deal with workplace safety, despite it's shortcomings the FAA is not all bad at regulating the industry and believe it or not, the insurance industry will deal with the Mesa's better than ALPA has to date.
At one time, you were right about the union-company relationship being brought about by company caused problems, but not anymore. If it were an issue at the newer fractionals, the pilots would be seeking out the Teamsters or ALPA, not the other way around. As was the case with the original posters intent with this thread.
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