B727DRVR

Hey NoJoy,

i love Master Chief and Cortana in your avatar. I'm a 41 out of 50 in Halo 3 Multiplayer, just can't break 41... .

B727DRVR

Hey RI,

Here is a post from a furloughed NJA pilot on the other thread, "Netjets Hiring?"... It seems like he got treated a lot better than other furloughed Fractional guys... I posted most, but not all, of it since we're not supposed to make duplicate posts:

"Yeah.

Fatigue rules. You find yourself too tired to fly, you call the ACP and tell him you're fatigued. You go to the hotel for 14 hours, minimum.

Scheduling. You start early on day 1, you get paid overtime up to a point (can't remember what the rule is, I've been furloughed longer than I flew the line at NJA). You get home after midnight on day last, you get paid for it.

Work Schedule. The company can't make arbitrary changes unless you're on a contractually agreed schedule that permits it.

Furlough language. Unless it's bargained away, I have unlimited recall rights. I also accrue longevity while furloughed. If the 2017 - 18 timeframe holds true, I'm going back at the top of the payscale. At the time of the furlough I retained pay and benefits for another two months.

ASAP reports and safety department. I don't think being non-union precludes you from having ASAP, it certainly helps. ASAP becomes part of the contract and keeps the company from using that data for disciplinary actions provided the offense is within the specified criteria. The Safety Committee is also in a position to work with the company safety dept to bring a line pilots' perspective to the table. Same with training.

Representation. I was generally a good little boy, but there are times when you can find yourself on the wrong end of someone's investigation and need someone to help make sure you don't shoot yourself in the foot. I've been on both ends of this aspect, representing pilots and being represented. Some of the guys that need representation are a special kind of stupid. The majority have one little hiccup and the company wants to make an example out of them. I represented one guy who picked up a trip, then overslept causing a cancellation. He ended up DH'ing into the rest of his trip and finished it up. The next day he was being told to get his tail to the CP's office (day off) with his badge and manuals. No other issues in his employment, but he ****ed someone off that day and he was getting fired over it. With no representation, it probably would have been game over. Personally, I had an airplane misbehave and the Feds got involved. I had a Rep on conference call at the hearing to make sure it didn't get out of hand. In that case it wasn't likely to, but it was reassuring to know someone was there to intervene if the inspectors decided to cop an attitude.

Those are just a few reasons I find it beneficial."

RI, please contrast the above treatment to the way that the XOJET, Flexjet, and Travel Management pilots were treated. Yes, in a perfect world with compassionate Capitalism, the Netjets wouldn't need their contract and the above airlines would pay and treat pilots just as well as the union-represented pilots at Netjets. But this is the real world, where safety and proper treatment of your employees all too often takes a back seat to corporate profits and executive perks and bonuses.

In conclusion, I challenge anyone to show how the Netjet pilots haven't proven the worth of their union, any union.

B727DRVR

Hey RI,

Here is a partial post from a current Netjets pilot from the thread, "Netjets Hiring?".... It seems like they have a pretty good deal going over there compared to the other Fractionals...

"The union has been a good thing for us (pilots)... Before the contract passed ( 2005), Netjets was no better than a commuter airline job.... The contract passed in 2006, then in 2007 we had another minor "upgrade" to a point where Netjets was a better job than some of the major airlines.

Our benefits, QOL and pay were also protected during 2008 & 2009 when things were really bad for everybody and we lost a bunch of money. I'm sure management wanted to claw some of that back.

I'm not a huge fan of unions for a couple of reasons, but I do realize they are neccesity.. investors are vicious (or vultures), they want more and more in return for their investments.

Nice to know someone's got your back".

Way to go, Netjets guys and gals.

RI830

I can start with a little background...the only union that I have been forced to pay dues to was ALPA. After 6 yrs in the regionals I went corporate. 3 years 91 private and now with a Non-Uniionized Fractional (I can assume you know who I work for).
I have watched for years the relationship between Mgmt and Unions. Once a company unionizes....there is never a "peace" between the group ever again.
I do see the desire to unionize against a managment team that can't seem to get their heads out of their proverbial arse. But my $.02 say leave and find a better job. There may be a level of toleration between the two, but never a "working together" attitude. I may be completely biased and skewed.....but my company meets all the same goals of schedule, rest, overtime pay and benefits that the NJA guy mentioned without the Union. We may not have the payscale tha NJA has, but we are paid what the industry demands for the airplane and seat. I have also watched as pilot groups unionize....it is the beginning of the un-sustainable business model. Most pay for least amount of work as the goal. Some where between that and working for free is where the company and union meet and off they go. Then the steady decline begins.
Unions are good for saving the jobs of guys who find themselves in trouble. That's a entirely different discussion......(ALPA....Another Loser Prevails Again)

I have a very sour taste in my mouth from what the Union is and always will be. I view the Aviation industry just as a capitalistic market. A mangament team will treat the pilots or paxs as good or bad as they see fit and and the pilots/paxs will choose to stay or go. Their choice!
Head over to the Union Talk portion of the Forum and see how much positivity is churning there.
I know there will always be Pro-Union and Anti-Union guys and there will never be a settling of the matter....but I can tell you that the Unionization of my company will never happen.

B727DRVR

OK, Fair enough....

But how about Southwest then, the most unionized airline in the country? They maintain a cordial environment of respect and admiration, don't they? It doesn't have to be war and Management sets the tone.

From what I have seen in aviation, no airline gets a union that doesn't deserve one and no pilot group gets a contract that doesn't deserve one.

I realize that this is wildly different from most ALPA stories like Eastern, Comair, TWA, etc., but ALPA was a life changing experience for my pilot group. One day, we had nothing... The next day we had Medical and Legal Protection. We got ASAP. Our pilots started getting help getting their Medicals back and Pilots all of sudden had ALPA Legal backing. HUGE. One day we were 150 surviving losers, down from 500 in one pilot group and 600 in our brother pilot group. The next day we are meeting with the head of the NTSB, TSA, and reps from the FAA. All of a sudden, we were in the country club.

When our company shut down, Our MEC Chairman worked with ALPA and they went after the Company like a rabid dog for the violations that they made during the furlough and eventual shutdown. We received a settlement check that shocked many of our former ALPA pilots from what they had gotten in the past. Through ALPA's efforts, I received a check for $8800 8 days before my house was to be forclosed on. Every year, I call my former MEC Chairman to thank him for saving my house and for everything he did for us. I can literally say that the 1.95% that I paid ALPA was not enough for the wonderful representation that my pilot group got.

I know that it is easy to bust on ALPA, and unions in general, but think twice about the things that they have done for all pilots and all Americans. Do you like no indentured servitude, workplace safety, paid vacations, FMLA, 40 hour work weeks, etc.? How about TCAS? Do you remember that the airlines fought it because it was too expensive? Who fought for the pilots? Unions did. For some good reading about life before unions in America, I recommend reading, "The Jungle", about when America was a Third World Country with kids chained to sewing machines and women locked in factories like Bangldesh and China today. Another great read is a book called "The Moral Limitations of Capitalism". See above sentence to see unchained Capitalism by its face in our own beloved country with Slavery in the pre-Civil War South and shocking conditions that were commonplace before our Forefathers rose up against the Robber Barons with their unions, and helped to create the American Middle Class. Unions are as American as apple pie. Oh, and this above comes from a pilot who woulld be called a RINO by Rush and Hannity, despite my working as a YR on two Presedential Campaigns in the '80's.

I'm sorry that you had a negative experience with unions, and I'm sure that you feel as strongly against as I do for. And iI respect that. I'm glad that you work for such a good employer that you would never want a union at. That is a rare place these days in aviation.

Finally, and back to what I was saying, all Fractional pilots have benefitted from the Capitalistic pressures of the NJA CBA. Flexjets pilots definately got a pay raise and I believe Flight Options did, too, as a direct result of the NJA CBA. You guys are probably paid better because of it, too.

Sailaway

RI, be careful. Never say "never". You don't have a crystal ball.

RI830

If I had a crystal ball...think if the possibilities!!
Our managment team would rather fold up and close the doors than unionize.

WN over the years had been an exception to the rule. Managment and Pilots in harmony. IMHO....things have been going down hill there since the new contract. They lost money...began buying people out cause of high payscales, delays increased, etc. Now.....is that becasue of a mix of bad economy tied with Highest payscale in the industry? Probably. I can't say that it only one or the other. But who does it serve for a pilot group to ask for the highest payscale in the industy when it causes your company to lose money. Not sustainable for very long! WN still excels as compared to the other Majors, but they are not what they once were.
ALPA bashing is one of lifes easiest things. Especially when your previous MEC is consumed in Snackgate and Money Fraud.
http://www.airlinepilotforums.com/re...lpa-funds.html
http://www.airlinepilotforums.com/un...-problems.html
As for TCAS, good for them if they fought to get that installed!
I know your a pro-union guy and have lots of positive things to say about them.....but I'm gonna have a real hard time finding enough positives to outweigh to blatently negative things.

Sailaway

"Our managment team would rather fold up and close the doors than unionize."

And you know for a fact that they will always be there.

As for ALPA, I was a loyal member for over 32 years. Over that time, they did a lot of good things. I left with a bitter taste in my mouth. The younger guys threw me and a small group of others under the bus when the company filed for bankruptcy. A good reason this country was founded as a republic. In a democracy the majority can be just as tyrannical as any dictator.

NoJoy

Do you have Halo 4 yet? I am getting mine soon. I have been slacking and reading these boards too much-

Screenshot Spotlight: Snipers Halo Official Site

DWS1

[QUOTE=RI830;1370780]but my company meets all the same goals of schedule, rest, overtime pay and benefits that the NJA guy mentioned without the Union. We may not have the payscale tha NJA has, but we are paid what the industry demands for the airplane and seat. QUOTE]

I don't know where to start with that statement. Actually, I do...the industry (being fractional) "demands" that we get paid as little as possible. We "command" what we are willing to do this job for. That is where the pilot groups of many other operators in this segment are failing themselves and their peers. Without some concerted effort, how (other than your Company having to ride the coat-tails of other Companies like NJA to salvage morale) do you expect to reap the compensation that your efforts deserve? And to industry averages regarrding pay, are you comparing to other fractional operators or to aircraft type? Part 91 and 135 operators do not drive nearly the revenue that most fractional pilots are driving. And like the airlines, a 757 pilot doesn't get paid more than a 737 pilot because it's harder to fly...it's because they drive more revenue.

We as pilots in the fractional industry need to collectively advance the careers of everyone by continually raising the bar for each other instead of just catching up to those with the strength to raise it for themselves.