To All Fractional Pilots
03-26-2013, 10:47 AM
#51
On Reserve
Joined APC: Sep 2008
Position: Phenom 300 PIC
Posts: 15
From flight options page......
" Flops took our 401K match away about 4 years ago and has no intention of bringing it back. There has never been a pension, and based on their attitude about our 401k match, will never offer a pension. Our pay is still about 40K under Net Jets and Flex Jet. We have over 200 pilots on furlough. We have 12 year co-pilots with little chance of upgrade and no growth. I don't mean to be negative, but those are the sad facts. A career at the regionals would be a wiser path based on the majors future hiring needs."
Is this what I get from your union representation? I make $80,000 at the end of my first year without you, just saying.... Oh and I love grape kool-aid
" Flops took our 401K match away about 4 years ago and has no intention of bringing it back. There has never been a pension, and based on their attitude about our 401k match, will never offer a pension. Our pay is still about 40K under Net Jets and Flex Jet. We have over 200 pilots on furlough. We have 12 year co-pilots with little chance of upgrade and no growth. I don't mean to be negative, but those are the sad facts. A career at the regionals would be a wiser path based on the majors future hiring needs."
Is this what I get from your union representation? I make $80,000 at the end of my first year without you, just saying.... Oh and I love grape kool-aid
03-26-2013, 10:24 PM
#52
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Mar 2008
Position: Standing in front of the tank with a shopping bag
Posts: 918
Originally Posted by KCFR8PILOT
From flight options page......
" Flops took our 401K match away about 4 years ago and has no intention of bringing it back. There has never been a pension, and based on their attitude about our 401k match, will never offer a pension. Our pay is still about 40K under Net Jets and Flex Jet. We have over 200 pilots on furlough. We have 12 year co-pilots with little chance of upgrade and no growth. I don't mean to be negative, but those are the sad facts. A career at the regionals would be a wiser path based on the majors future hiring needs."
Is this what I get from your union representation? I make $80,000 at the end of my first year without you, just saying.... Oh and I love grape kool-aid
" Flops took our 401K match away about 4 years ago and has no intention of bringing it back. There has never been a pension, and based on their attitude about our 401k match, will never offer a pension. Our pay is still about 40K under Net Jets and Flex Jet. We have over 200 pilots on furlough. We have 12 year co-pilots with little chance of upgrade and no growth. I don't mean to be negative, but those are the sad facts. A career at the regionals would be a wiser path based on the majors future hiring needs."
Is this what I get from your union representation? I make $80,000 at the end of my first year without you, just saying.... Oh and I love grape kool-aid
Are you serious? It's disappointing that you mock and demean the efforts of the Flight Options pilots and their contract, considering that they are your fellow aviators. The thing that you have obviously missed is that things are better there after they unionized and this was their first contract. Their one mistake was that they waited too long to organize.... They should have locked in things in a contract back when times were good; A mistake that countless pilot groups have made.
Back in the day, it was Flight Options that was the fractional to work for. Things were great, and then they went South as they unfortunately often do. At the same time, Executive Jet (Now Netjets) was a pretty bad place to work. Pay-for-training, followed by low pay, etc. Then they got their first contract, which like Flight Options was an improvement over what they had. Now, after their 2005 contract, their pay and working conditions rival most major airlines and NO fractional comes close.
What you get from AMERICAN union representation is the much beloved: end of indentured servitude, end of forced child labor, paid vacation, paid sick time, workplace safety, 40 hour work week, the American Middle Class, and too many other things to mention. Our Forefathers fought the Robber Barrons, who owned 99% of the Nations wealth to help create the American Middle class. They, in turn with the GI Bill, helped educate millions and paid for their children's educations with good-paying union jobs. How about FMLA? Guess who fought for that? You're welcome....
What pilot union representation has gotten you is the safest aviation industry in the world. Pilot unions fought for our safety and paid for it with their blood. Most of the regulations we have were again, paid for with blood. Like the NASA form? Like TCASII? FFDO, CRM, fixed distance markers, standard airport markings, lightings, etc., ARTCC, TAWS, GPWS, standard instrument panels, Terminal Doppler radar, cockpit wx radar, etc. are some of the many things that pilot unions fought for years to get. You are safer, not because of the good wills of the Robber Barrons or various airline management teams over the years, but because of the many pilot unions that fought to make things safer DESPITE THE COST. Again, you're welcome.
Specifically, what you have got from other fractionals union representation is a high water mark of pay and working conditions. Chances are that you are paid better because of the Netjets contract than you would be without it.... I know my friends over at Flex are definitely paid better because of it. Yes, you're welcome again.
I don't know where you fly your Phenom at, but I am guessing that it is not Netjets from your post. Ask any active Netjets pilot if they would like to give up their contract and ask any furloughed Netjets pilot if they would willingly give up their UNLIMITED recall rights contractual language. Contrast that with any other fractional out there, especially Flexjet. I think that it is great that you are paid as well as you are. That's great for you and all of us pilots, fractional or not. What I don't think is great is your demeaning the efforts of the Flight Options pilots in their first contract. Remember how bad Netjets first contract was?
Wherever you are, I truly hope that things stay good for you (which is good for all pilots). But remember, things can change overnight and what's good can go South. What you have today can be gone tomorrow with the stroke of a new CFO, CEO, etc. pen, who, by the way HAS a contract. Just ask any Flight Options, Flexjet, Citation Air, XOJET, etc. pilot. The Flight Options pilots might just end up laughing at everybody in the end, but they certainly deserve better respect now.
Respectfully,
B727DRVR
03-27-2013, 01:56 AM
#53
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2006
Position: C47 PIC/747-400 SIC
Posts: 2,100
Originally Posted by B727DRVR
Wow KCFR8PILOT,
Are you serious? It's disappointing that you mock and demean the efforts of the Flight Options pilots and their contract, considering that they are your fellow aviators. The thing that you have obviously missed is that things are better there after they unionized and this was their first contract. Their one mistake was that they waited too long to organize.... They should have locked in things in a contract back when times were good; A mistake that countless pilot groups have made.
Back in the day, it was Flight Options that was the fractional to work for. Things were great, and then they went South as they unfortunately often do. At the same time, Executive Jet (Now Netjets) was a pretty bad place to work. Pay-for-training, followed by low pay, etc. Then they got their first contract, which like Flight Options was an improvement over what they had. Now, after their 2005 contract, their pay and working conditions rival most major airlines and NO fractional comes close.
What you get from AMERICAN union representation is the much beloved: end of indentured servitude, end of forced child labor, paid vacation, paid sick time, workplace safety, 40 hour work week, the American Middle Class, and too many other things to mention. Our Forefathers fought the Robber Barrons, who owned 99% of the Nations wealth to help create the American Middle class. They, in turn with the GI Bill, helped educate millions and paid for their children's educations with good-paying union jobs. How about FMLA? Guess who fought for that? You're welcome....
What pilot union representation has gotten you is the safest aviation industry in the world. Pilot unions fought for our safety and paid for it with their blood. Most of the regulations we have were again, paid for with blood. Like the NASA form? Like TCASII? FFDO, CRM, fixed distance markers, standard airport markings, lightings, etc., ARTCC, TAWS, GPWS, standard instrument panels, Terminal Doppler radar, cockpit wx radar, etc. are some of the many things that pilot unions fought for years to get. You are safer, not because of the good wills of the Robber Barrons or various airline management teams over the years, but because of the many pilot unions that fought to make things safer DESPITE THE COST. Again, you're welcome.
Specifically, what you have got from other fractionals union representation is a high water mark of pay and working conditions. Chances are that you are paid better because of the Netjets contract than you would be without it.... I know my friends over at Flex are definitely paid better because of it. Yes, you're welcome again.
I don't know where you fly your Phenom at, but I am guessing that it is not Netjets from your post. Ask any active Netjets pilot if they would like to give up their contract and ask any furloughed Netjets pilot if they would willingly give up their UNLIMITED recall rights contractual language. Contrast that with any other fractional out there, especially Flexjet. I think that it is great that you are paid as well as you are. That's great for you and all of us pilots, fractional or not. What I don't think is great is your demeaning the efforts of the Flight Options pilots in their first contract. Remember how bad Netjets first contract was?
Wherever you are, I truly hope that things stay good for you (which is good for all pilots). But remember, things can change overnight and what's good can go South. What you have today can be gone tomorrow with the stroke of a new CFO, CEO, etc. pen, who, by the way HAS a contract. Just ask any Flight Options, Flexjet, Citation Air, XOJET, etc. pilot. The Flight Options pilots might just end up laughing at everybody in the end, but they certainly deserve better respect now.
Respectfully,
B727DRVR
Are you serious? It's disappointing that you mock and demean the efforts of the Flight Options pilots and their contract, considering that they are your fellow aviators. The thing that you have obviously missed is that things are better there after they unionized and this was their first contract. Their one mistake was that they waited too long to organize.... They should have locked in things in a contract back when times were good; A mistake that countless pilot groups have made.
Back in the day, it was Flight Options that was the fractional to work for. Things were great, and then they went South as they unfortunately often do. At the same time, Executive Jet (Now Netjets) was a pretty bad place to work. Pay-for-training, followed by low pay, etc. Then they got their first contract, which like Flight Options was an improvement over what they had. Now, after their 2005 contract, their pay and working conditions rival most major airlines and NO fractional comes close.
What you get from AMERICAN union representation is the much beloved: end of indentured servitude, end of forced child labor, paid vacation, paid sick time, workplace safety, 40 hour work week, the American Middle Class, and too many other things to mention. Our Forefathers fought the Robber Barrons, who owned 99% of the Nations wealth to help create the American Middle class. They, in turn with the GI Bill, helped educate millions and paid for their children's educations with good-paying union jobs. How about FMLA? Guess who fought for that? You're welcome....
What pilot union representation has gotten you is the safest aviation industry in the world. Pilot unions fought for our safety and paid for it with their blood. Most of the regulations we have were again, paid for with blood. Like the NASA form? Like TCASII? FFDO, CRM, fixed distance markers, standard airport markings, lightings, etc., ARTCC, TAWS, GPWS, standard instrument panels, Terminal Doppler radar, cockpit wx radar, etc. are some of the many things that pilot unions fought for years to get. You are safer, not because of the good wills of the Robber Barrons or various airline management teams over the years, but because of the many pilot unions that fought to make things safer DESPITE THE COST. Again, you're welcome.
Specifically, what you have got from other fractionals union representation is a high water mark of pay and working conditions. Chances are that you are paid better because of the Netjets contract than you would be without it.... I know my friends over at Flex are definitely paid better because of it. Yes, you're welcome again.
I don't know where you fly your Phenom at, but I am guessing that it is not Netjets from your post. Ask any active Netjets pilot if they would like to give up their contract and ask any furloughed Netjets pilot if they would willingly give up their UNLIMITED recall rights contractual language. Contrast that with any other fractional out there, especially Flexjet. I think that it is great that you are paid as well as you are. That's great for you and all of us pilots, fractional or not. What I don't think is great is your demeaning the efforts of the Flight Options pilots in their first contract. Remember how bad Netjets first contract was?
Wherever you are, I truly hope that things stay good for you (which is good for all pilots). But remember, things can change overnight and what's good can go South. What you have today can be gone tomorrow with the stroke of a new CFO, CEO, etc. pen, who, by the way HAS a contract. Just ask any Flight Options, Flexjet, Citation Air, XOJET, etc. pilot. The Flight Options pilots might just end up laughing at everybody in the end, but they certainly deserve better respect now.
Respectfully,
B727DRVR
04-03-2013, 12:02 PM
#54
Line Holder
Thread Starter
Joined APC: May 2008
Posts: 54
Originally Posted by B727DRVR
Wow KCFR8PILOT,
Are you serious? It's disappointing that you mock and demean the efforts of the Flight Options pilots and their contract, considering that they are your fellow aviators. The thing that you have obviously missed is that things are better there after they unionized and this was their first contract. Their one mistake was that they waited too long to organize.... They should have locked in things in a contract back when times were good; A mistake that countless pilot groups have made.
Back in the day, it was Flight Options that was the fractional to work for. Things were great, and then they went South as they unfortunately often do. At the same time, Executive Jet (Now Netjets) was a pretty bad place to work. Pay-for-training, followed by low pay, etc. Then they got their first contract, which like Flight Options was an improvement over what they had. Now, after their 2005 contract, their pay and working conditions rival most major airlines and NO fractional comes close.
What you get from AMERICAN union representation is the much beloved: end of indentured servitude, end of forced child labor, paid vacation, paid sick time, workplace safety, 40 hour work week, the American Middle Class, and too many other things to mention. Our Forefathers fought the Robber Barrons, who owned 99% of the Nations wealth to help create the American Middle class. They, in turn with the GI Bill, helped educate millions and paid for their children's educations with good-paying union jobs. How about FMLA? Guess who fought for that? You're welcome....
What pilot union representation has gotten you is the safest aviation industry in the world. Pilot unions fought for our safety and paid for it with their blood. Most of the regulations we have were again, paid for with blood. Like the NASA form? Like TCASII? FFDO, CRM, fixed distance markers, standard airport markings, lightings, etc., ARTCC, TAWS, GPWS, standard instrument panels, Terminal Doppler radar, cockpit wx radar, etc. are some of the many things that pilot unions fought for years to get. You are safer, not because of the good wills of the Robber Barrons or various airline management teams over the years, but because of the many pilot unions that fought to make things safer DESPITE THE COST. Again, you're welcome.
Specifically, what you have got from other fractionals union representation is a high water mark of pay and working conditions. Chances are that you are paid better because of the Netjets contract than you would be without it.... I know my friends over at Flex are definitely paid better because of it. Yes, you're welcome again.
I don't know where you fly your Phenom at, but I am guessing that it is not Netjets from your post. Ask any active Netjets pilot if they would like to give up their contract and ask any furloughed Netjets pilot if they would willingly give up their UNLIMITED recall rights contractual language. Contrast that with any other fractional out there, especially Flexjet. I think that it is great that you are paid as well as you are. That's great for you and all of us pilots, fractional or not. What I don't think is great is your demeaning the efforts of the Flight Options pilots in their first contract. Remember how bad Netjets first contract was?
Wherever you are, I truly hope that things stay good for you (which is good for all pilots). But remember, things can change overnight and what's good can go South. What you have today can be gone tomorrow with the stroke of a new CFO, CEO, etc. pen, who, by the way HAS a contract. Just ask any Flight Options, Flexjet, Citation Air, XOJET, etc. pilot. The Flight Options pilots might just end up laughing at everybody in the end, but they certainly deserve better respect now.
Respectfully,
B727DRVR
Are you serious? It's disappointing that you mock and demean the efforts of the Flight Options pilots and their contract, considering that they are your fellow aviators. The thing that you have obviously missed is that things are better there after they unionized and this was their first contract. Their one mistake was that they waited too long to organize.... They should have locked in things in a contract back when times were good; A mistake that countless pilot groups have made.
Back in the day, it was Flight Options that was the fractional to work for. Things were great, and then they went South as they unfortunately often do. At the same time, Executive Jet (Now Netjets) was a pretty bad place to work. Pay-for-training, followed by low pay, etc. Then they got their first contract, which like Flight Options was an improvement over what they had. Now, after their 2005 contract, their pay and working conditions rival most major airlines and NO fractional comes close.
What you get from AMERICAN union representation is the much beloved: end of indentured servitude, end of forced child labor, paid vacation, paid sick time, workplace safety, 40 hour work week, the American Middle Class, and too many other things to mention. Our Forefathers fought the Robber Barrons, who owned 99% of the Nations wealth to help create the American Middle class. They, in turn with the GI Bill, helped educate millions and paid for their children's educations with good-paying union jobs. How about FMLA? Guess who fought for that? You're welcome....
What pilot union representation has gotten you is the safest aviation industry in the world. Pilot unions fought for our safety and paid for it with their blood. Most of the regulations we have were again, paid for with blood. Like the NASA form? Like TCASII? FFDO, CRM, fixed distance markers, standard airport markings, lightings, etc., ARTCC, TAWS, GPWS, standard instrument panels, Terminal Doppler radar, cockpit wx radar, etc. are some of the many things that pilot unions fought for years to get. You are safer, not because of the good wills of the Robber Barrons or various airline management teams over the years, but because of the many pilot unions that fought to make things safer DESPITE THE COST. Again, you're welcome.
Specifically, what you have got from other fractionals union representation is a high water mark of pay and working conditions. Chances are that you are paid better because of the Netjets contract than you would be without it.... I know my friends over at Flex are definitely paid better because of it. Yes, you're welcome again.
I don't know where you fly your Phenom at, but I am guessing that it is not Netjets from your post. Ask any active Netjets pilot if they would like to give up their contract and ask any furloughed Netjets pilot if they would willingly give up their UNLIMITED recall rights contractual language. Contrast that with any other fractional out there, especially Flexjet. I think that it is great that you are paid as well as you are. That's great for you and all of us pilots, fractional or not. What I don't think is great is your demeaning the efforts of the Flight Options pilots in their first contract. Remember how bad Netjets first contract was?
Wherever you are, I truly hope that things stay good for you (which is good for all pilots). But remember, things can change overnight and what's good can go South. What you have today can be gone tomorrow with the stroke of a new CFO, CEO, etc. pen, who, by the way HAS a contract. Just ask any Flight Options, Flexjet, Citation Air, XOJET, etc. pilot. The Flight Options pilots might just end up laughing at everybody in the end, but they certainly deserve better respect now.
Respectfully,
B727DRVR
04-05-2013, 09:49 PM
#55
On Reserve
Joined APC: Sep 2008
Position: Phenom 300 PIC
Posts: 15
Originally Posted by B727DRVR
Wow KCFR8PILOT,
Are you serious? It's disappointing that you mock and demean the efforts of the Flight Options pilots and their contract, considering that they are your fellow aviators. The thing that you have obviously missed is that things are better there after they unionized and this was their first contract. Their one mistake was that they waited too long to organize.... They should have locked in things in a contract back when times were good; A mistake that countless pilot groups have made.
Back in the day, it was Flight Options that was the fractional to work for. Things were great, and then they went South as they unfortunately often do. At the same time, Executive Jet (Now Netjets) was a pretty bad place to work. Pay-for-training, followed by low pay, etc. Then they got their first contract, which like Flight Options was an improvement over what they had. Now, after their 2005 contract, their pay and working conditions rival most major airlines and NO fractional comes close.
What you get from AMERICAN union representation is the much beloved: end of indentured servitude, end of forced child labor, paid vacation, paid sick time, workplace safety, 40 hour work week, the American Middle Class, and too many other things to mention. Our Forefathers fought the Robber Barrons, who owned 99% of the Nations wealth to help create the American Middle class. They, in turn with the GI Bill, helped educate millions and paid for their children's educations with good-paying union jobs. How about FMLA? Guess who fought for that? You're welcome....
What pilot union representation has gotten you is the safest aviation industry in the world. Pilot unions fought for our safety and paid for it with their blood. Most of the regulations we have were again, paid for with blood. Like the NASA form? Like TCASII? FFDO, CRM, fixed distance markers, standard airport markings, lightings, etc., ARTCC, TAWS, GPWS, standard instrument panels, Terminal Doppler radar, cockpit wx radar, etc. are some of the many things that pilot unions fought for years to get. You are safer, not because of the good wills of the Robber Barrons or various airline management teams over the years, but because of the many pilot unions that fought to make things safer DESPITE THE COST. Again, you're welcome.
Specifically, what you have got from other fractionals union representation is a high water mark of pay and working conditions. Chances are that you are paid better because of the Netjets contract than you would be without it.... I know my friends over at Flex are definitely paid better because of it. Yes, you're welcome again.
I don't know where you fly your Phenom at, but I am guessing that it is not Netjets from your post. Ask any active Netjets pilot if they would like to give up their contract and ask any furloughed Netjets pilot if they would willingly give up their UNLIMITED recall rights contractual language. Contrast that with any other fractional out there, especially Flexjet. I think that it is great that you are paid as well as you are. That's great for you and all of us pilots, fractional or not. What I don't think is great is your demeaning the efforts of the Flight Options pilots in their first contract. Remember how bad Netjets first contract was?
Wherever you are, I truly hope that things stay good for you (which is good for all pilots). But remember, things can change overnight and what's good can go South. What you have today can be gone tomorrow with the stroke of a new CFO, CEO, etc. pen, who, by the way HAS a contract. Just ask any Flight Options, Flexjet, Citation Air, XOJET, etc. pilot. The Flight Options pilots might just end up laughing at everybody in the end, but they certainly deserve better respect now.
Respectfully,
B727DRVR
Are you serious? It's disappointing that you mock and demean the efforts of the Flight Options pilots and their contract, considering that they are your fellow aviators. The thing that you have obviously missed is that things are better there after they unionized and this was their first contract. Their one mistake was that they waited too long to organize.... They should have locked in things in a contract back when times were good; A mistake that countless pilot groups have made.
Back in the day, it was Flight Options that was the fractional to work for. Things were great, and then they went South as they unfortunately often do. At the same time, Executive Jet (Now Netjets) was a pretty bad place to work. Pay-for-training, followed by low pay, etc. Then they got their first contract, which like Flight Options was an improvement over what they had. Now, after their 2005 contract, their pay and working conditions rival most major airlines and NO fractional comes close.
What you get from AMERICAN union representation is the much beloved: end of indentured servitude, end of forced child labor, paid vacation, paid sick time, workplace safety, 40 hour work week, the American Middle Class, and too many other things to mention. Our Forefathers fought the Robber Barrons, who owned 99% of the Nations wealth to help create the American Middle class. They, in turn with the GI Bill, helped educate millions and paid for their children's educations with good-paying union jobs. How about FMLA? Guess who fought for that? You're welcome....
What pilot union representation has gotten you is the safest aviation industry in the world. Pilot unions fought for our safety and paid for it with their blood. Most of the regulations we have were again, paid for with blood. Like the NASA form? Like TCASII? FFDO, CRM, fixed distance markers, standard airport markings, lightings, etc., ARTCC, TAWS, GPWS, standard instrument panels, Terminal Doppler radar, cockpit wx radar, etc. are some of the many things that pilot unions fought for years to get. You are safer, not because of the good wills of the Robber Barrons or various airline management teams over the years, but because of the many pilot unions that fought to make things safer DESPITE THE COST. Again, you're welcome.
Specifically, what you have got from other fractionals union representation is a high water mark of pay and working conditions. Chances are that you are paid better because of the Netjets contract than you would be without it.... I know my friends over at Flex are definitely paid better because of it. Yes, you're welcome again.
I don't know where you fly your Phenom at, but I am guessing that it is not Netjets from your post. Ask any active Netjets pilot if they would like to give up their contract and ask any furloughed Netjets pilot if they would willingly give up their UNLIMITED recall rights contractual language. Contrast that with any other fractional out there, especially Flexjet. I think that it is great that you are paid as well as you are. That's great for you and all of us pilots, fractional or not. What I don't think is great is your demeaning the efforts of the Flight Options pilots in their first contract. Remember how bad Netjets first contract was?
Wherever you are, I truly hope that things stay good for you (which is good for all pilots). But remember, things can change overnight and what's good can go South. What you have today can be gone tomorrow with the stroke of a new CFO, CEO, etc. pen, who, by the way HAS a contract. Just ask any Flight Options, Flexjet, Citation Air, XOJET, etc. pilot. The Flight Options pilots might just end up laughing at everybody in the end, but they certainly deserve better respect now.
Respectfully,
B727DRVR
While I respect your time and effort in long career especially in my favorite aircraft holding the line for our fellows, all I did was quote from a current flight options pilot on their section of this board. Also time and time again pro union folks such as yourself take the them to give me and others a unnecessary history to that of Unions in America. This is a dynamic economy and also a dynamic country look Withicta v Charleston in the Boeing battle, the entire Kansas congressional delgate hold up the tanker plans from going to Airbus only to the have the Local threaten a strike on concessions that would have made them marketable to a right to work state. In regards to the safty enhancements, it took (unfortunately)many hard lessons learned. Finally was it really the "bitter, spoiled, non conforming junior pilots" who are responsible for the furloighs at NetJets or was it from the top of senority who could not give a little to help the future of their fellow junior pilots (this one I would like furloughed Flex and Options pilots to opine)? From my current vantage point at my current company (one I hope to continue to grow and retire with) I feel that union representation is not needed nor wanted. While I sincerely respect and value your contributions I would hope you and others would show me the same and not be cheapened to a "kool-aid" punch line.
Thanks
04-08-2013, 05:06 PM
#56
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Mar 2008
Position: Standing in front of the tank with a shopping bag
Posts: 918
Originally Posted by KCFR8PILOT
Sir,
While I respect your time and effort in long career especially in my favorite aircraft holding the line for our fellows, all I did was quote from a current flight options pilot on their section of this board. Also time and time again pro union folks such as yourself take the them to give me and others a unnecessary history to that of Unions in America. This is a dynamic economy and also a dynamic country look Withicta v Charleston in the Boeing battle, the entire Kansas congressional delgate hold up the tanker plans from going to Airbus only to the have the Local threaten a strike on concessions that would have made them marketable to a right to work state. In regards to the safty enhancements, it took (unfortunately)many hard lessons learned. Finally was it really the "bitter, spoiled, non conforming junior pilots" who are responsible for the furloighs at NetJets or was it from the top of senority who could not give a little to help the future of their fellow junior pilots (this one I would like furloughed Flex and Options pilots to opine)? From my current vantage point at my current company (one I hope to continue to grow and retire with) I feel that union representation is not needed nor wanted. While I sincerely respect and value your contributions I would hope you and others would show me the same and not be cheapened to a "kool-aid" punch line.
Thanks
While I respect your time and effort in long career especially in my favorite aircraft holding the line for our fellows, all I did was quote from a current flight options pilot on their section of this board. Also time and time again pro union folks such as yourself take the them to give me and others a unnecessary history to that of Unions in America. This is a dynamic economy and also a dynamic country look Withicta v Charleston in the Boeing battle, the entire Kansas congressional delgate hold up the tanker plans from going to Airbus only to the have the Local threaten a strike on concessions that would have made them marketable to a right to work state. In regards to the safty enhancements, it took (unfortunately)many hard lessons learned. Finally was it really the "bitter, spoiled, non conforming junior pilots" who are responsible for the furloighs at NetJets or was it from the top of senority who could not give a little to help the future of their fellow junior pilots (this one I would like furloughed Flex and Options pilots to opine)? From my current vantage point at my current company (one I hope to continue to grow and retire with) I feel that union representation is not needed nor wanted. While I sincerely respect and value your contributions I would hope you and others would show me the same and not be cheapened to a "kool-aid" punch line.
Thanks
Although I didn't make any comparison to you and Kool-aid, I guess someone did and that's unfortunate in what is supposed to be a civil debate among professionals. As I said previously, I am glad that you are fortunate to work someplace where a union is neither needed or wanted. In aviation these days, that is a rare gem indeed. Again, I assert that no company gets a union that doesn't deserve it, nor does any pilot group get a CBA that work for it and deserve it.
However, most pilots are not that fortunate. If you have ever read "Flying the Line, 1 or 2", you see what aviation jobs were like before pilots chose to organize (a very all-American thing to do, despite what Rush and Hannity might tell you). While you say that you don't need that history repeated to you, it is important that all pilots know that they have benefitted from the actions of their predecessors.
Unfortunately, conditions for many pilots today are still deplorable and will continue to be until they either quit or organize to make things better. The Flight Options pilots did that and they are on the path to a better future than they had when they organized. That was my whole point...And even with the furloughs, Netjets pilots are going to better off in the long run than many pilots at the Majors, and every pilot at the other fractionals (and yes that includes those currently furloughed due to their UNLIMITED recall rights and seniority accrual). I can only imagine what Mesa, TranStates, etc. would be like without a union. Actually, I remember TranStates back before they organized when they were named Resort Air. A true sweat shop compared with today.
Also, many pilots that have something great today should be aware that things can change overnight with a new CEO, CFO, DO, or even a new CP. Imagine how dumb the SkyWest pilots would feel if TranStates or Mesa bought them: They have no contractural protection and the agreements that their "student government" have with current management would not be worth the paper they are written on, if they are even written at all.
Of course, I am aware of the terrible overreach that some unions have made and seriously damaged or destroyed their companies/industries. By the same token, I am painfully and personally aware of the management overreach that is so pervasive in America today. While you always hear about how unions have hurt America and its industries, little is mentioned about the CEO's that come in to slash and burn, but walk away with $40 million in pay, bonuses, perks, and incentives. That, in my opinion, is the height of treason and un-Americanism.
In conclusion, unions certainly are not perfect but they have provided countless pilots and other workers a much better quality of life, better compensation, better safety, and that work has bettered the life of countless non-union pilots. I challenge anyone to show me how unions have not raised the level of saftey, pay, QOL for all pilots, union or not.
Respectfully,
B727DRVR
04-10-2013, 10:16 AM
#57
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Mar 2007
Position: Ungh... I sign the log
Posts: 119
Originally Posted by RI830
Unions are in it for the $$$ and membership numbers....not the pilots.
06-14-2013, 01:04 PM
#58
Line Holder
Thread Starter
Joined APC: May 2008
Posts: 54
Originally Posted by RI830
IMHO.......
Unions are what cause the demise of good companies.
I have been part of a closed shop union/company in the past and it is a complete joke. I am proud to work for a fractional that will never have involve unions.
I suggest getting a job at a company that treats its people right and pays fair wages an then there is no need for a union.
Just like capitalism.....let the system work and things tend to take care of themselves. If a company is bad...no one will work for them and they will be forced to go under or changed. A company who pays fairly and treats employees fairly will do well and succeed.
Just my $.02
Flame away!
Unions are what cause the demise of good companies.
I have been part of a closed shop union/company in the past and it is a complete joke. I am proud to work for a fractional that will never have involve unions.
I suggest getting a job at a company that treats its people right and pays fair wages an then there is no need for a union.
Just like capitalism.....let the system work and things tend to take care of themselves. If a company is bad...no one will work for them and they will be forced to go under or changed. A company who pays fairly and treats employees fairly will do well and succeed.
Just my $.02
Flame away!
06-14-2013, 04:44 PM
#59
On Reserve
Joined APC: Mar 2013
Posts: 16
Originally Posted by DWS1
I don't believe you work for them, however, many at XO Jet have said exactly what you have above. With things turning a bit there, we'll see if that sentiment continues. It's easy for the Company make you feel valued in times of growth, because you are. However, when times get tough, that is when the true value of having a contract presents itself and protects many pilots and their families from having to carry the burden of their Managements mistakes. I hate to see any pilot suffer, however, I fear XO Jet pilots will be the latest example of why having a contract in this business is essential and must be secured in the good times.
It always amazes me that pilots reflexively accuse unions of corruption and ineffectiveness whenever something goes wrong but jump at any chance to explain away management's greed, incompetence, and lack of forsight as " victims of the market".
I also quietly wonder if most anti union believers ever actually volunteered for their union before calling it names and throwing rocks? (this is not directed at the older ALPA fatigue guys who post here)
06-22-2013, 08:10 PM
#60
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Oct 2006
Position: CE-560XL
Posts: 127
Originally Posted by RI830
IMHO.......
Unions are what cause the demise of good companies.
I have been part of a closed shop union/company in the past and it is a complete joke. I am proud to work for a fractional that will never have involve unions.
I suggest getting a job at a company that treats its people right and pays fair wages an then there is no need for a union.
Just like capitalism.....let the system work and things tend to take care of themselves. If a company is bad...no one will work for them and they will be forced to go under or changed. A company who pays fairly and treats employees fairly will do well and succeed.
Just my $.02
Flame away!
Unions are what cause the demise of good companies.
I have been part of a closed shop union/company in the past and it is a complete joke. I am proud to work for a fractional that will never have involve unions.
I suggest getting a job at a company that treats its people right and pays fair wages an then there is no need for a union.
Just like capitalism.....let the system work and things tend to take care of themselves. If a company is bad...no one will work for them and they will be forced to go under or changed. A company who pays fairly and treats employees fairly will do well and succeed.
Just my $.02
Flame away!
Flightbag
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