Connect and get the inside scoop on Airline Companies

Welcome to Airline Pilot Forums - Connect and get the inside scoop on Airline Companies

If this is your first visit, be sure to check out the FAQ. Join our community today and start interacting with existing members. Registration is fast, simple and absolutely free.


User Tag List
Aero1900, kspilot, OpenClimb

Post Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Old 04-09-2018, 03:17 PM   #1341  
Gets Weekends Off
 
Joined APC: Dec 2016
Posts: 325
Default

I get that everybody sees what Spirit got for LTD and wants the same. I do too. But the pilot group was polled and it was not a priority in those polls. Asking for huge gains in LTD at this point in negotiations is akin to the company all of a sudden asking for PBS. I donít think it would go over well. Sorry but those are the apples.
Powderkeg is offline  
Old 04-09-2018, 03:27 PM   #1342  
Gets Weekends Off
 
PowerMan's Avatar
 
Joined APC: Nov 2013
Posts: 120
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Powderkeg View Post
I get that everybody sees what Spirit got for LTD and wants the same. I do too. But the pilot group was polled and it was not a priority in those polls. Asking for huge gains in LTD at this point in negotiations is akin to the company all of a sudden asking for PBS. I donít think it would go over well. Sorry but those are the apples.
Well I for one am not really concerned how it goes over. Many factors have changed while the company has strung us along, all in our favor. Iím sure the company can use some of that 36ish million tax break towards a reasonable LTD.
PowerMan is offline  
Old 04-09-2018, 04:32 PM   #1343  
Gets Weekends Off
 
Joined APC: Apr 2016
Posts: 477
Default

Maybe we should have traded LOA 76 and these new buffers for a real LTD plan. Giving them a generous LOA when they crapped all over LOA 67 is beyond me.
PulledBreaker is offline  
Old 04-09-2018, 04:33 PM   #1344  
Gets Weekends Off
 
Joined APC: Oct 2013
Posts: 963
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by PowerMan View Post
Well I for one am not really concerned how it goes over. Many factors have changed while the company has strung us along, all in our favor. Iím sure the company can use some of that 36ish million tax break towards a reasonable LTD.
It's not the company it has to go over well with, it's the NMB. We weaken our position if we are seen by the NMB to be overreaching. I know, WE don't think it's an overreach, but we have to play by the NMB book to get a favorable result. The NMB's perception is everything.
Xdashdriver is offline  
Old 04-09-2018, 05:21 PM   #1345  
Gets Weekends Off
 
PowerMan's Avatar
 
Joined APC: Nov 2013
Posts: 120
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xdashdriver View Post
It's not the company it has to go over well with, it's the NMB. We weaken our position if we are seen by the NMB to be overreaching. I know, WE don't think it's an overreach, but we have to play by the NMB book to get a favorable result. The NMB's perception is everything.
The NMB is fully aware of the changing conditions (like the tax break). Itís not overreaching if the company is gifted a tax break (meant to trickle down btw) and we in turn stick to our original reasonable approach and also expect something of a reasonable LTD.

You can bet that had conditions turned unfavorable (financially) for the company during this delay of their making that they would in turn change their original stance and ask for more concessions.
PowerMan is offline  
Old 04-09-2018, 07:30 PM   #1346  
Gets Weekends Off
 
Joined APC: May 2012
Position: Happy
Posts: 302
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by PowerMan View Post
The NMB is fully aware of the changing conditions (like the tax break). Itís not overreaching if the company is gifted a tax break (meant to trickle down btw) and we in turn stick to our original reasonable approach and also expect something of a reasonable LTD.

You can bet that had conditions turned unfavorable (financially) for the company during this delay of their making that they would in turn change their original stance and ask for more concessions.
Exactly. This plus one.
303flyboy is offline  
Old 04-10-2018, 04:42 AM   #1347  
Gets Weekends Off
 
Joined APC: Dec 2016
Posts: 325
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by PowerMan View Post
The NMB is fully aware of the changing conditions (like the tax break). Itís not overreaching if the company is gifted a tax break (meant to trickle down btw) and we in turn stick to our original reasonable approach and also expect something of a reasonable LTD.

You can bet that had conditions turned unfavorable (financially) for the company during this delay of their making that they would in turn change their original stance and ask for more concessions.
I think you give the NMB too much credit. They canít even recognize the company bargaining in bad faith let alone interpret economic conditions. I get the feeling they look at the list of imperatives they were given over a year ago and if itís not on that list they disregard it. Iíve been wrong before but my faith in the NMB has reached record lows.
Powderkeg is offline  
Old 04-10-2018, 07:00 AM   #1348  
Gets Weekends Off
 
Joined APC: Oct 2013
Posts: 963
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by PowerMan View Post
The NMB is fully aware of the changing conditions (like the tax break). Itís not overreaching if the company is gifted a tax break (meant to trickle down btw) and we in turn stick to our original reasonable approach and also expect something of a reasonable LTD.

You can bet that had conditions turned unfavorable (financially) for the company during this delay of their making that they would in turn change their original stance and ask for more concessions.
Being aware and acting on that awareness in a manner that would benefit us don't always go hand in hand.
Xdashdriver is offline  
Old 04-10-2018, 08:15 AM   #1349  
Gets Weekends Off
 
PowerMan's Avatar
 
Joined APC: Nov 2013
Posts: 120
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xdashdriver View Post
Being aware and acting on that awareness in a manner that would benefit us don't always go hand in hand.
Sure, I totally agree. The NMB may or may not act favorably for us. But settling on inadequate sections based on conjecture guarantees an unfavorable outcome for us.

The point Iím making is that all 3 parties to this negotiation are fully aware of the factors influencing the eventual agreement. All 3, then, can deduce whatís reasonable with regards to each section. As line pilots, we only have one input ultimately, a yes or no vote to the (eventual) TA. Since that TA hasnít been presented yet, I expect it to reflect current market conditions, respectively. If it does, Iíll be a yes. If not, Iíll be a no and expect the NC to go back to the table. I certainly wonít settle for sub-par sections because the NMB might not receive our rejection well. Thatís conjecture, itís out of our control, and it runs counter to a logical and fair outcome.

When a TA is presented, our union will explain why and how they reached the agreement to each section. If a case can be made for sections that seem below average (past precedents, above average gains in other areas, etc) then Iíll factor that in my vote. If the reason is because the NMB might not like our rejection of a sub-par agreement, well thatís not a reason backed by any substance.

Grossly indadequate sections are hard to offset and are usually disproportionately unfair to some cross section of the pilot group (poor reserve rules to junior pilots, poor LTD for those prone to health issues). Thereís just no reason for that in the current environment.

I wonít let conjecture influence my analysis of a TA. Either itís fair or it isnít.
PowerMan is offline  
Old 04-10-2018, 10:30 AM   #1350  
Gets Weekends Off
 
Joined APC: Nov 2010
Position: A320 Captain
Posts: 641
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by PowerMan View Post
Sure, I totally agree. The NMB may or may not act favorably for us. But settling on inadequate sections based on conjecture guarantees an unfavorable outcome for us.

The point Iím making is that all 3 parties to this negotiation are fully aware of the factors influencing the eventual agreement. All 3, then, can deduce whatís reasonable with regards to each section. As line pilots, we only have one input ultimately, a yes or no vote to the (eventual) TA. Since that TA hasnít been presented yet, I expect it to reflect current market conditions, respectively. If it does, Iíll be a yes. If not, Iíll be a no and expect the NC to go back to the table. I certainly wonít settle for sub-par sections because the NMB might not receive our rejection well. Thatís conjecture, itís out of our control, and it runs counter to a logical and fair outcome.

When a TA is presented, our union will explain why and how they reached the agreement to each section. If a case can be made for sections that seem below average (past precedents, above average gains in other areas, etc) then Iíll factor that in my vote. If the reason is because the NMB might not like our rejection of a sub-par agreement, well thatís not a reason backed by any substance.

Grossly indadequate sections are hard to offset and are usually disproportionately unfair to some cross section of the pilot group (poor reserve rules to junior pilots, poor LTD for those prone to health issues). Thereís just no reason for that in the current environment.

I wonít let conjecture influence my analysis of a TA. Either itís fair or it isnít.

Very good post!^^^^
Bolo is offline  
 
 
 

 
Post Reply
 



Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes


Related Topics
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Frontier Hiring. 319wisperer Frontier 9479 06-20-2019 11:31 AM
Frontier pilots sold out by FAPA Ravensvic Frontier 71 10-18-2012 06:56 PM
Response to Captain Tucker alfaromeo Major 68 06-29-2012 04:16 AM


All times are GMT -8. The time now is 05:16 AM.