Frontier Negotiations Discussion
01-25-2018, 09:26 AM
#792
Line holder
Joined APC: Nov 2013
Position: On the bus,seat 0A
Posts: 3,228
Originally Posted by dracir1
Again, the timing of all the NK representations here seems very strange. I’m gonna call u all “so called NK pilots” as I dont believe any pilots, at any level, would be this naive.
So the thought process is that the TRO didn’t cause any sort of loss in terms of time or money but instead actually sped up negotiations? Ok.
In any negotiation, the most important aspect is leverage. That’s is basic Negotiating 101. You always want to be negotiating from a position of more strength. And, you always, always, always ask for more than the last comparable entity. When pro athletes ask for a new contract, very few settle for what’s good enough or middle of the pack (unless their services dictate such). Both of our groups fly A321s with more passengers than any other domestic airline. Our procedures are not substandard. We don’t fly more recklessly than JB or Virgin. We (that’s both you and me) deserve to be paid among the highest if not THE highest paid Airbus pilots in the country. Period. Doesn’t matter how much of an increase in cost it might be for the company. Doesn’t matter how long it’s been since the last contract. It is the companys job to find a way to make a profit selling airline transport services to pay their pilot group what they are worth, not yours. If they need to charge higher prices or find a way to pack more people in the back, so be it. I do my job with precision and dedication, so should they.
So called NK and fellow F9, you are selling yourself short of you think for a second your wages and benefits should be less than the tops in the industry. It’s unfortunate that NK will be capped by the NMB but so far, we haven’t been. It’s our duty to ourselves and all the pilot groups in the industry to hold out for as much as we can. We’ve come this far. We’ve behaved appropriately despite inciteful and devious tactics from the company. We need an industry leading (or very dayum close to it) contract in terms of wages, scope, vacation, insurance, etc.
So the thought process is that the TRO didn’t cause any sort of loss in terms of time or money but instead actually sped up negotiations? Ok.
In any negotiation, the most important aspect is leverage. That’s is basic Negotiating 101. You always want to be negotiating from a position of more strength. And, you always, always, always ask for more than the last comparable entity. When pro athletes ask for a new contract, very few settle for what’s good enough or middle of the pack (unless their services dictate such). Both of our groups fly A321s with more passengers than any other domestic airline. Our procedures are not substandard. We don’t fly more recklessly than JB or Virgin. We (that’s both you and me) deserve to be paid among the highest if not THE highest paid Airbus pilots in the country. Period. Doesn’t matter how much of an increase in cost it might be for the company. Doesn’t matter how long it’s been since the last contract. It is the companys job to find a way to make a profit selling airline transport services to pay their pilot group what they are worth, not yours. If they need to charge higher prices or find a way to pack more people in the back, so be it. I do my job with precision and dedication, so should they.
So called NK and fellow F9, you are selling yourself short of you think for a second your wages and benefits should be less than the tops in the industry. It’s unfortunate that NK will be capped by the NMB but so far, we haven’t been. It’s our duty to ourselves and all the pilot groups in the industry to hold out for as much as we can. We’ve come this far. We’ve behaved appropriately despite inciteful and devious tactics from the company. We need an industry leading (or very dayum close to it) contract in terms of wages, scope, vacation, insurance, etc.
PM me for any proof you need, I'm sure there are pretenders on APC but I'm not.
"So the thought process is that the TRO didn’t cause any sort of loss in terms of time or money but instead actually sped up negotiations? Ok."
I don't think either of us will ever know if it did, personally I think it did help, because it showed investors the company is having labor problems. (See Reuters link, point 1). Also helped we have problems filling classes and increasing training failures.
For what it's worth I don't think we should have been TRO-ed. The company showed a couple of social media messages from a couple of misguided individuals, and BOOM, the whole group including the union is guilty.
"Both of our groups fly A321s with more passengers than any other domestic airline."
Sorry but you can't compare seat-miles like that. I got paid $100K to fly 1,000,000 ASM/year flying corporate, using your "logic" I should be making $6.5 million/year at Spirit. Yes, we pack more people but at the expense of having first/business class. American has transcon A321s with 110 seats, you think those pilots should be making half of what you make?
We deserve more than what I think is coming in the TA, we should have been released by the NMB, and I hope you get a better deal, I just don't agree with the $/seats argument.
"We need an industry leading (or very dayum close to it) contract in terms of wages, scope, vacation, insurance, etc"
I came to Spirit with over 10 years of flying experience (most of it TPIC) 5 years ago,but most of FOs hired in the past 3 years are coming in with very little experience and/or see Spirit as a stepping stone to the mayors, BECAUSE of the contract we have. This causes a downward spiral of expectation on both sides. I think F9 might be similar.
Sources:
Reuters:
https://www.reuters.com/article/brief-spirit-airlines-sees-pretty-big-ta/brief-spirit-airlines-sees-pretty-big-tax-deferral-following-tax-overhaul-idUSS8N1O302A
Then: flying 500 hours per year at 350 knots average ground speed in a six passenger citation is 1,000,000 available seat miles (ASM). I made $100,000 per year so I made $0.10 per ASM.
Now: flying 900 hours per year at average 400 knots average ground speed in average 180 seat Airbus is 65 million ASM. At a dime per ASM I should get $6,500,000.00 per year.....
Transcon A321:
https://www.seatguru.com/airlines/American_Airlines/American_Airlines_Airbus_A321_new.php
Disclaimer: too much time on my long layover
01-25-2018, 01:35 PM
#793
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Nov 2016
Posts: 617
Originally Posted by dracir1
So, you mean to tell me that Indigo could continue to stall our NC for EVER and nothing would come of it? That F9 pilots could just be stuck w/ their current contract and the NMB just shrug their shoulders and say "Well, it's not the greatest contract but it's not so bad that we should release you to self help"?
No, I'm thinking the guys and gals at the NMB are smarter than that. They understand the FINANCIAL climate of the airlines right now (which is to say approaching as prosperous a time as before 9/11) and realize just how much profit Indigo is making. And, they realize a great deal of that profit stems from paying their labor the LOWEST amount in the industry.
Oh, so now you say maybe they need to offer us something. Well, they have. It was much worse than the NK AIP. And you think that if negotiations continue w/ the ridiculous offer they made, that might just get us released but the NK offer won't. If we get what NK got offered, we won't get released because that offer is the bar - the baseline by which any offer comparable or better will result in non-release? You're SURE that offer, still well below most of the industry flying the same or similar planes, is at least enough to be put on ice like NK - a pilot group that had a TRO placed on them? Despite F9's history as being one of the highest paid but accepted concessions in their last contract to keep the company alive (and not strand thousands of airline passengers w/ worthless tickets awaiting refunds from a bankrupt company)? Despite the fact that the pilot group was ALREADY supposed to be paid much more via their LOA 67 which, when disputed, found the company to be not negotiating in good faith? None of that matters because the NMB is stupid or just unwilling to consider history or who's in office?
Really?
Ya know, all this trolling is starting to make sense to me. Just minutes after that NK AIP came out and their pilot group was told negotiations were over and, it seems like everybody and their brother came to this thread trying their hardest to be as disruptive and derogatory as possible towards the F9 pilot group. Now that NK is done, "they" can concentrate efforts on us. This amount of trolling has me thinking it's a good sign - "they" being mgt/Indigo knows the battle w/ our pilot group is going to go to the wire and are afraid of what might result...
No, I'm thinking the guys and gals at the NMB are smarter than that. They understand the FINANCIAL climate of the airlines right now (which is to say approaching as prosperous a time as before 9/11) and realize just how much profit Indigo is making. And, they realize a great deal of that profit stems from paying their labor the LOWEST amount in the industry.
Oh, so now you say maybe they need to offer us something. Well, they have. It was much worse than the NK AIP. And you think that if negotiations continue w/ the ridiculous offer they made, that might just get us released but the NK offer won't. If we get what NK got offered, we won't get released because that offer is the bar - the baseline by which any offer comparable or better will result in non-release? You're SURE that offer, still well below most of the industry flying the same or similar planes, is at least enough to be put on ice like NK - a pilot group that had a TRO placed on them? Despite F9's history as being one of the highest paid but accepted concessions in their last contract to keep the company alive (and not strand thousands of airline passengers w/ worthless tickets awaiting refunds from a bankrupt company)? Despite the fact that the pilot group was ALREADY supposed to be paid much more via their LOA 67 which, when disputed, found the company to be not negotiating in good faith? None of that matters because the NMB is stupid or just unwilling to consider history or who's in office?
Really?
Ya know, all this trolling is starting to make sense to me. Just minutes after that NK AIP came out and their pilot group was told negotiations were over and, it seems like everybody and their brother came to this thread trying their hardest to be as disruptive and derogatory as possible towards the F9 pilot group. Now that NK is done, "they" can concentrate efforts on us. This amount of trolling has me thinking it's a good sign - "they" being mgt/Indigo knows the battle w/ our pilot group is going to go to the wire and are afraid of what might result...
I wish I shared your optimism but the NMB has already allowed other pilot groups to remain in mediation for well over 4 years. We've barely been in it for 1. In one relatively recent case the Mediator petitioned the board for a proffer and was not only denied, but removed from the case.
To the NMB a proffer is a concession of failure. I'm not saying we'll never get released if Frontier/Indigo don't offer more, but they don't have to offer much. As long as they can create an "illusion of progress" they will continue to buy time.
I expect we'll get a contract from the pressures of market forces before a release from the NMB, which I'd be shocked if it were this year.
Those who posted above that the sky isn't falling are dead on. Frontier is a money factory and will continue to be at least the rest of this year. When the presses start to slow we will get our contract. Not when the NMB releases us. I've got my strike fund saved, in case I'm wrong. I'd be very surprised if I have to use it though.
01-25-2018, 04:26 PM
#794
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Mar 2016
Posts: 443
Originally Posted by dracir1
Ya know, all this trolling is starting to make sense to me. Just minutes after that NK AIP came out and their pilot group was told negotiations were over and, it seems like everybody and their brother came to this thread trying their hardest to be as disruptive and derogatory as possible towards the F9 pilot group. Now that NK is done, "they" can concentrate efforts on us. This amount of trolling has me thinking it's a good sign - "they" being mgt/Indigo knows the battle w/ our pilot group is going to go to the wire and are afraid of what might result...
01-25-2018, 05:10 PM
#795
Gets Weekends Off
Thread Starter
Joined APC: Feb 2014
Position: Lineholder
Posts: 1,359
Originally Posted by CantStayAway
I wish I shared your optimism but the NMB has already allowed other pilot groups to remain in mediation for well over 4 years. We've barely been in it for 1. In one relatively recent case the Mediator petitioned the board for a proffer and was not only denied, but removed from the case.
To the NMB a proffer is a concession of failure. I'm not saying we'll never get released if Frontier/Indigo don't offer more, but they don't have to offer much. As long as they can create an "illusion of progress" they will continue to buy time.
I expect we'll get a contract from the pressures of market forces before a release from the NMB, which I'd be shocked if it were this year.
Those who posted above that the sky isn't falling are dead on. Frontier is a money factory and will continue to be at least the rest of this year. When the presses start to slow we will get our contract. Not when the NMB releases us. I've got my strike fund saved, in case I'm wrong. I'd be very surprised if I have to use it though.
To the NMB a proffer is a concession of failure. I'm not saying we'll never get released if Frontier/Indigo don't offer more, but they don't have to offer much. As long as they can create an "illusion of progress" they will continue to buy time.
I expect we'll get a contract from the pressures of market forces before a release from the NMB, which I'd be shocked if it were this year.
Those who posted above that the sky isn't falling are dead on. Frontier is a money factory and will continue to be at least the rest of this year. When the presses start to slow we will get our contract. Not when the NMB releases us. I've got my strike fund saved, in case I'm wrong. I'd be very surprised if I have to use it though.
And, trust, Indigo has no intention of putting forth a nickle more than they think will pass by 50.01%.
01-26-2018, 07:48 AM
#796
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2007
Position: Airplanes
Posts: 1,378
Originally Posted by dracir1
Ya know, all this trolling is starting to make sense to me. Just minutes after that NK AIP came out and their pilot group was told negotiations were over and, it seems like everybody and their brother came to this thread trying their hardest to be as disruptive and derogatory as possible towards the F9 pilot group. Now that NK is done, "they" can concentrate efforts on us. This amount of trolling has me thinking it's a good sign - "they" being mgt/Indigo knows the battle w/ our pilot group is going to go to the wire and are afraid of what might result...
01-26-2018, 08:06 AM
#797
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Nov 2012
Position: 1900D CA
Posts: 3,395
Originally Posted by Macjet
You're exactly right brother. Hold that line! We're just Harris & Bendover & Juro demoralizing posters. Demand and hold out for Delta plus 10%, 25% DC, 18 YO tail tight scope, LTD, rigs, free medical, company paid training hotels, LOA 67, FULL MOTHER !@#$%^& retro, crew meals, and profit sharing. !@#$ the NMB and their 'ranking' system. You're half the size of NK, which is half the size of B6, which is half the size of WN, which is half the size of Ma' 'On GUAAARRRRRD' Delta. But yeah baby, you totally go girl and hold out for the next decade. I'm sure Franke will be ****ed you're working for so cheap over the next two Presidential elections. Thumbs up, fluffy tail animals, and high fives! Your contract 2028 will be yuuuuge. Can't wait to see it.
01-26-2018, 08:47 AM
#798
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Aug 2015
Position: Underpaid, LCC
Posts: 263
Originally Posted by Macjet
You're exactly right brother. Hold that line! We're just Harris & Bendover & Juro demoralizing posters. Demand and hold out for Delta plus 10%, 25% DC, 18 YO tail tight scope, LTD, rigs, free medical, company paid training hotels, LOA 67, FULL MOTHER !@#$%^& retro, crew meals, and profit sharing. !@#$ the NMB and their 'ranking' system. You're half the size of NK, which is half the size of B6, which is half the size of WN, which is half the size of Ma' 'On GUAAARRRRRD' Delta. But yeah baby, you totally go girl and hold out for the next decade. I'm sure Franke will be ****ed you're working for so cheap over the next two Presidential elections. Thumbs up, fluffy tail animals, and high fives! Your contract 2028 will be yuuuuge.
Can't wait to see it.
Can't wait to see it.
You forgot replacing the ovens, bringing back the warm cookies,free WiFi and a mandatory STC to avoid the FWD lav “fragrance” we all get the pleasure of experiencing.
I hope your TA comes out soon. I hope that you read the whole thing a couple times do the math, see if it is worth it to you all and do what is right for you. We aren’t upset with you guys. Honestly we want you guys to get an amazing deal! IF Spirit pilots vote in your TA it will increase pressure on Indigo..... it just will. It won’t make them offer all the above and we don’t expect that either. Is holding out risky? Sure. Might it pay off? Sure. Any guarantees? Not a one.
I can see your point on some items and I realize that we are both at a different airline and our situations are similar, they are also different in their own respect.
Best of luck to you all.
01-26-2018, 01:24 PM
#800
Gets Weekends Off
Thread Starter
Joined APC: Feb 2014
Position: Lineholder
Posts: 1,359
Originally Posted by Macjet
You're exactly right brother. Hold that line! We're just Harris & Bendover & Juro demoralizing posters. Demand and hold out for Delta plus 10%, 25% DC, 18 YO tail tight scope, LTD, rigs, free medical, company paid training hotels, LOA 67, FULL MOTHER !@#$%^& retro, crew meals, and profit sharing. !@#$ the NMB and their 'ranking' system. You're half the size of NK, which is half the size of B6, which is half the size of WN, which is half the size of Ma' 'On GUAAARRRRRD' Delta. But yeah baby, you totally go girl and hold out for the next decade. I'm sure Franke will be ****ed you're working for so cheap over the next two Presidential elections. Thumbs up, fluffy tail animals, and high fives! Your contract 2028 will be yuuuuge. Can't wait to see it.
But on the real, why are you here again?
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