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Old 01-28-2018, 02:50 PM   #821  
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Thank you for the answer
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Old 01-28-2018, 04:22 PM   #822  
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Originally Posted by UNSUBSCRIBE View Post
Yes, you are missing something.

Are you serious with comparing FedExs size to a legacy?
You understand FedEx is a much larger than DELTA?, lol right?

Delta is only an airline, FedEx is a Worldwide POWERHOUSE, same with UPS.....

Market cap alone is 2x the size, lol

Clueless
I’m not going to agree that the size of any recognized major airline should determine what they should pay their pilots. Their size can effect their profit margins (generally the larger the airline, the thinner the margins). Profit margins is what determines their ability to pay wages, so in F9’s case they are quite capable of paying average market rates for pilots while still maintaining a sizable margin over their competitors. It’s not in the size of the numbers, it’s in the percentages.

But since you seem intent on using this ridiculous argument about the size of FedEX (international ops) versus Delta versus whoever - let’s recognize another corporation, Indigo Partners.

Now based on your logic, follow me. Indigo Partners, which is a large corporation invested in four airlines, just placed the largest Airbus order in history.

So let’s take all of Indigo’s growth (430 airframes) from that order and conservatively assume 50% of every current aircraft flying amongst the 4 airlines will be retired by the time the new order is fully delivered in 2026. That leaves the following numbers for each fleet without a single aircraft from the latest massive Airbus order; 82 for Volaris, 20 for JetSmart, 179 for WizzAir, 106 for Frontier. That’s a total of 387 aircraft amongst the 4 airlines before including the 430 airframe order. So in 2026 Indigo Partners could have in the ballpark of 817 aircraft operating under their control. That’s 105 more aircraft than Southwest Airlines currently operates, and only 33 less airframes than Delta!

Well shucks, I guess when we look at it this way your “Size = pay rates” logic would put our pay rates somewhere between Southwest and Delta.

How about them apples?!


My math, not including any aircraft from massive Airbus order:
Frontier: (1/2 of 78 current F9 fleet is 39, then add 67 undelivered aircraft from previous order, sum of 106).
WizzAir: (1/2 of 88 current fleet is 44, then add 135 undelivered from previous orders, sum of 179).
JetSmart: (1/2 of 5 current fleet is approx. 2, then add 18 undelivered aircraft from previous orders, sum of 20).
Volaris: (1/2 of 69 current fleet is approx. 34, then add 48 undelivered aircraft from previous orders, sum of 82).
You can find these numbers under “Fleet” for each airline on Wikipedia.
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Old 01-28-2018, 07:34 PM   #823  
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And I hate to do this because I know quite a few really good fellas at Spirit, but for the few of you on Frontier’s forum waving your AIP (as if it were a TA) and try to measure your massive 112 aircraft fleet against our 78 aircraft fleet. Here’s a measuring contest for you. If I use the same math (1/2 of your currently flying fleet retired in 8 years and add the undelivered aircraft orders) the total sum of aircraft at Spirit in 2026 is 115 aircraft. Using the same math it is 240 aircraft at Frontier in 2026. And guess what, nobody here at F9 gives a damn if we’re twice the size of Spirit.

Add to that, your management recently said “it’s open to consolidation opportunities.” The writing is on the wall. If we’re all stuck here at our respective crap companies, there’s a great chance we’ll see the day they come to form one. So how about you stop the wiener measuring contests and join the rest of us in supporting each other’s contract fights.
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Old 01-28-2018, 09:23 PM   #824  
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Originally Posted by dracir1 View Post
Yeah, don’t sweat the guy who started the thread in the first with the purpose of unity...regardless, if my opinion is the minority then the vote will take care of itself. That’s the beauty of the whole thing. I will live with whatever is decided.

But I definitely ain’t gonna say to you, Indigo, myself or anyone else “Yeah, I understand. I fly the same planes on the same routes as dudes paid almost twice as much but I should not strive to get as close to their compensation, just cuz. I’ll forget that just a few years ago this company paid pilots the most in the industry but that was the good ol days. We got a new owner now and that means I gotta accept less, cuz they said so and we’re jerks during negotiations.”

Do you see how ridiculous that sounds? To accept less than ANY one else doing the same job just because the owner who just bought the company is stingy? Do you think if Indigo bought Delta or Jet Blue or even Allegiant that ANY of those pilots should shrug, start feeling sorry for themselves and accept concessions because of the new owners being in place?

In these financial times and in this air travel environment, accepting LESS is accepting further (just slightly better) concessions!!!!! The one thing I can say about NK is that they got told what the best they would get is. They stepped on their own penises to get told that, but at least they held out that long. We’ve been in negotiations for half a minute and already guys are talking about taking less...

Well, I want an industry leading CONTRACT or as close as we can get. Is that gonna mean Delta wages, SW scope, NK drop rules/trade rules, greater vacation slides, 20% no match retirement, etc? Of course not. But something approaching all of those (read that as IMPROVEMENTS in every area of the contract- some more significant than others) is certainly expected. I don’t expect to give up some thing in one area just to improve another - we were working under concessions and that time is over.


I guess being ex-military has me thinking differently. Perhaps you see that as radical or too lofty. That’s just me. I will forever strive to walk as tall as possible and if that means I get cut off at the ankles, then so be it. But I will NEVER voluntarily walk on my knees.


Guys he knows the NK TA is a turd and is just trying to justify his yes vote so he can sleep at night!!


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Old 01-29-2018, 08:42 AM   #825  
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Originally Posted by DrJekyll MrHyde View Post
And I hate to do this because I know quite a few really good fellas at Spirit, but for the few of you on Frontier’s forum waving your AIP (as if it were a TA) and try to measure your massive 112 aircraft fleet against our 78 aircraft fleet. Here’s a measuring contest for you. If I use the same math (1/2 of your currently flying fleet retired in 8 years and add the undelivered aircraft orders) the total sum of aircraft at Spirit in 2026 is 115 aircraft. Using the same math it is 240 aircraft at Frontier in 2026. And guess what, nobody here at F9 gives a damn if we’re twice the size of Spirit.

Add to that, your management recently said “it’s open to consolidation opportunities.” The writing is on the wall. If we’re all stuck here at our respective crap companies, there’s a great chance we’ll see the day they come to form one. So how about you stop the wiener measuring contests and join the rest of us in supporting each other’s contract fights.
Agreed, again.......I apolgize for being a ********
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Old 01-29-2018, 02:19 PM   #826  
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Originally Posted by doz4dllrs View Post
Why are you guys comparing airline size with pay? Wouldn’t comparing profit margin and their ability to pay be a better benchmark?

F9 puts up ~25% margins vs legacies at ~ 10-15%. Who has the ability to afford the better contract?

Ups and Fedex are no where the size of the legacies but they have some of the best contracts. They didn’t negotiate based ob their size but on what their airline could afford to pay and the work they do.

Am I missing something here?
Yes you are missing something. I used to think it was as simple as margins too, but it’s not.

For example: Delta had a Q3 margin of 15.6%. Total income was $1.72 billion. Delta has about 14,450 pilots. So that means that Delta made a profit of $119,000 per pilot for that quarter.

Spirit had a slightly lower margin of 15% for Q3. The profit was $65.5 million. Divide that by 1850 pilots and Spirit made approximately $35,400 per pilot for the quarter.

$119k vs $35k

Although the margins are similar at both Airlines, it doesn’t paint the whole picture as to what the company can afford to pay. As you can see, Delta can afford to pay much more.

That being said, both Spirit and Frontier could afford to pay industry standard and still be profitable in the current environment. The company will disagree with that statement. The question is: who will the mediator believe?
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Old 01-29-2018, 02:56 PM   #827  
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Originally Posted by Planepirate View Post
Yes you are missing something. I used to think it was as simple as margins too, but it’s not.

For example: Delta had a Q3 margin of 15.6%. Total income was $1.72 billion. Delta has about 14,450 pilots. So that means that Delta made a profit of $119,000 per pilot for that quarter.

Spirit had a slightly lower margin of 15% for Q3. The profit was $65.5 million. Divide that by 1850 pilots and Spirit made approximately $35,400 per pilot for the quarter.

$119k vs $35k

Although the margins are similar at both Airlines, it doesn’t paint the whole picture as to what the company can afford to pay. As you can see, Delta can afford to pay much more.

That being said, both Spirit and Frontier could afford to pay industry standard and still be profitable in the current environment. The company will disagree with that statement. The question is: who will the mediator believe?
Income vs profit hmmm... not really the same thing. And I don't think they made 1.7 billion in a quarter. I'm just doing this quick and I found a couple figures but let's say they profited 550mil that's roughly 38,000 per pilot. So, you were saying?

Last edited by I like BIG Bus; 01-29-2018 at 03:11 PM. Reason: don't APC with very little time.
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Old 01-29-2018, 04:53 PM   #828  
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Originally Posted by I like BIG Bus View Post
Income vs profit hmmm... not really the same thing. And I don't think they made 1.7 billion in a quarter. I'm just doing this quick and I found a couple figures but let's say they profited 550mil that's roughly 38,000 per pilot. So, you were saying?
Delta had a quarterly profit ending 9/30/2017 of 1.17 billion. they end 2016 with a net income (profit) of 4.3 billion. These are straight off the delta income statement. easy public info to find. And having big margins is a good thing and sign of a healthy company.. But margins are NOT what pays the bills. Money pays the bills. And a company with more can afford more of everything. Higher wages, higher bills, higher expenses and absorb more in the way of Losses than a company with LESS money. Would you rather have 20% margin of a 5 billion dollar company or 10% margin of a 30 billion dollar company?? Margins are only one small metric. The smaller margin in the example above is in fact a crap load more money. 2 Billion MORE to be exact. A small sandwich chain could have demonstrably higher margins than subway.. but subway has 20,000 plus locations, therefore having an a** load more money.... although they both do the "same job" .. its all about scalability
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Old 01-29-2018, 05:15 PM   #829  
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Originally Posted by I like BIG Bus View Post
Income vs profit hmmm... not really the same thing. And I don't think they made 1.7 billion in a quarter. I'm just doing this quick and I found a couple figures but let's say they profited 550mil that's roughly 38,000 per pilot. So, you were saying?
https://www.fool.com/investing/2017/10/11/delta-air-lines-inc-q3-earnings-solid-results-desp.aspx

Their profit was $1.7 billion. Delta’s revenue was north of $11billion for the quarter. I misspoke and should have used the proper terminology, but if you are going to argue, please argue with facts.

So you were saying?
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Old 01-29-2018, 05:48 PM   #830  
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Originally Posted by Planepirate View Post
https://www.fool.com/investing/2017/10/11/delta-air-lines-inc-q3-earnings-solid-results-desp.aspx

Their profit was $1.7 billion. Delta’s revenue was north of $11billion for the quarter. I misspoke and should have used the proper terminology, but if you are going to argue, please argue with facts.

So you were saying?
"According to the SEC documents filed by Frontier, the carrier’s financials since its transition to a ULCC business model have been very strong. From 2014-2016 revenue grew only about 8%, but the balance of the revenue coming from ancillary revenues jumped from 16.6% to 42.3% in 2016, indicating a successful transition to the ULCC business model.

Moreover, profitability jumped from a 14.3% operating margin in 2014 to 18.5% in 2016. Perhaps more impressively, Frontier expanded its operating margins between 2015 and 2016 even as most of its US airline peers saw margins and profits go in the opposite direction.

What you’re left with is a carrier that generated a $317 million operating profit and a $200 million net profit off of $1.71 billion in revenue in 2016.

Whatever the flaws with the IPO (and I will get into that below), Frontier’s margins are comparable to those of its larger ULCC competitors Allegiant and Spirit, and are much stronger than those of Virgin America at the time of its IPO back in 2014. Moreover, the ULCC business model has a proven track record of success around the world with a consistent path of expanding profits for ULCCs around the world in the last two decades."

317 Million operating profit or 200 million net?
So what was F9's profit divided by 1100 pilots?

$288,181 or $181,818?

It's no Delta, but its not bad.

Last edited by doz4dllrs; 01-29-2018 at 05:58 PM.
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