pilot0987

Thank you for the answer

DrJekyll MrHyde

I’m not going to agree that the size of any recognized major airline should determine what they should pay their pilots. Their size can effect their profit margins (generally the larger the airline, the thinner the margins). Profit margins is what determines their ability to pay wages, so in F9’s case they are quite capable of paying average market rates for pilots while still maintaining a sizable margin over their competitors. It’s not in the size of the numbers, it’s in the percentages.

But since you seem intent on using this ridiculous argument about the size of FedEX (international ops) versus Delta versus whoever - let’s recognize another corporation, Indigo Partners.

Now based on your logic, follow me. Indigo Partners, which is a large corporation invested in four airlines, just placed the largest Airbus order in history.

So let’s take all of Indigo’s growth (430 airframes) from that order and conservatively assume 50% of every current aircraft flying amongst the 4 airlines will be retired by the time the new order is fully delivered in 2026. That leaves the following numbers for each fleet without a single aircraft from the latest massive Airbus order; 82 for Volaris, 20 for JetSmart, 179 for WizzAir, 106 for Frontier. That’s a total of 387 aircraft amongst the 4 airlines before including the 430 airframe order. So in 2026 Indigo Partners could have in the ballpark of 817 aircraft operating under their control. That’s 105 more aircraft than Southwest Airlines currently operates, and only 33 less airframes than Delta!

Well shucks, I guess when we look at it this way your “Size = pay rates” logic would put our pay rates somewhere between Southwest and Delta.

How about them apples?!


My math, not including any aircraft from massive Airbus order:
Frontier: (1/2 of 78 current F9 fleet is 39, then add 67 undelivered aircraft from previous order, sum of 106).
WizzAir: (1/2 of 88 current fleet is 44, then add 135 undelivered from previous orders, sum of 179).
JetSmart: (1/2 of 5 current fleet is approx. 2, then add 18 undelivered aircraft from previous orders, sum of 20).
Volaris: (1/2 of 69 current fleet is approx. 34, then add 48 undelivered aircraft from previous orders, sum of 82).
You can find these numbers under “Fleet” for each airline on Wikipedia.

DrJekyll MrHyde

And I hate to do this because I know quite a few really good fellas at Spirit, but for the few of you on Frontier’s forum waving your AIP (as if it were a TA) and try to measure your massive 112 aircraft fleet against our 78 aircraft fleet. Here’s a measuring contest for you. If I use the same math (1/2 of your currently flying fleet retired in 8 years and add the undelivered aircraft orders) the total sum of aircraft at Spirit in 2026 is 115 aircraft. Using the same math it is 240 aircraft at Frontier in 2026. And guess what, nobody here at F9 gives a damn if we’re twice the size of Spirit.

Add to that, your management recently said “it’s open to consolidation opportunities.” The writing is on the wall. If we’re all stuck here at our respective crap companies, there’s a great chance we’ll see the day they come to form one. So how about you stop the wiener measuring contests and join the rest of us in supporting each other’s contract fights.

WhatajokeSPA

Guys he knows the NK TA is a turd and is just trying to justify his yes vote so he can sleep at night!!


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Agreed, again.......I apolgize for being a ********

Planepirate

Yes you are missing something. I used to think it was as simple as margins too, but it’s not.

For example: Delta had a Q3 margin of 15.6%. Total income was $1.72 billion. Delta has about 14,450 pilots. So that means that Delta made a profit of $119,000 per pilot for that quarter.

Spirit had a slightly lower margin of 15% for Q3. The profit was $65.5 million. Divide that by 1850 pilots and Spirit made approximately $35,400 per pilot for the quarter.

$119k vs $35k

Although the margins are similar at both Airlines, it doesn’t paint the whole picture as to what the company can afford to pay. As you can see, Delta can afford to pay much more.

That being said, both Spirit and Frontier could afford to pay industry standard and still be profitable in the current environment. The company will disagree with that statement. The question is: who will the mediator believe?

I like BIG Bus

Income vs profit hmmm... not really the same thing. And I don't think they made 1.7 billion in a quarter. I'm just doing this quick and I found a couple figures but let's say they profited 550mil that's roughly 38,000 per pilot. So, you were saying?

FlyGuy2002

Delta had a quarterly profit ending 9/30/2017 of 1.17 billion. they end 2016 with a net income (profit) of 4.3 billion. These are straight off the delta income statement. easy public info to find. And having big margins is a good thing and sign of a healthy company.. But margins are NOT what pays the bills. Money pays the bills. And a company with more can afford more of everything. Higher wages, higher bills, higher expenses and absorb more in the way of Losses than a company with LESS money. Would you rather have 20% margin of a 5 billion dollar company or 10% margin of a 30 billion dollar company?? Margins are only one small metric. The smaller margin in the example above is in fact a crap load more money. 2 Billion MORE to be exact. A small sandwich chain could have demonstrably higher margins than subway.. but subway has 20,000 plus locations, therefore having an a** load more money.... although they both do the "same job" .. its all about scalability

Planepirate

https://www.fool.com/investing/2017/10/11/delta-air-lines-inc-q3-earnings-solid-results-desp.aspx

Their profit was $1.7 billion. Delta’s revenue was north of $11billion for the quarter. I misspoke and should have used the proper terminology, but if you are going to argue, please argue with facts.

So you were saying?

doz4dllrs

"According to the SEC documents filed by Frontier, the carrier’s financials since its transition to a ULCC business model have been very strong. From 2014-2016 revenue grew only about 8%, but the balance of the revenue coming from ancillary revenues jumped from 16.6% to 42.3% in 2016, indicating a successful transition to the ULCC business model.

Moreover, profitability jumped from a 14.3% operating margin in 2014 to 18.5% in 2016. Perhaps more impressively, Frontier expanded its operating margins between 2015 and 2016 even as most of its US airline peers saw margins and profits go in the opposite direction.

What you’re left with is a carrier that generated a $317 million operating profit and a $200 million net profit off of $1.71 billion in revenue in 2016.

Whatever the flaws with the IPO (and I will get into that below), Frontier’s margins are comparable to those of its larger ULCC competitors Allegiant and Spirit, and are much stronger than those of Virgin America at the time of its IPO back in 2014. Moreover, the ULCC business model has a proven track record of success around the world with a consistent path of expanding profits for ULCCs around the world in the last two decades."

317 Million operating profit or 200 million net?
So what was F9's profit divided by 1100 pilots?

$288,181 or $181,818?

It's no Delta, but its not bad.