The QOL as an FO here is good. You obviously move up the list much faster on the FO side. If you live in base, Frontier will be good for you

 

Bro! I thought you were kidding, that IS a rough trip, oof! 16 hours though if you’re into the redeye thing....for some reason.

 

While I wouldn’t bid for a trip like this on purpose, it stays in the same circadian window for the whole pairing. As a west coaster, it lands only an hour or two after I normally go to bed. The trips that need to go away are the redeyes to the east coast followed by an early show the next day. Those take you 180 degrees out of your window in one rest period.

 

And the funny thing is everyone has their own preference as to what they can handle. Multiple nights of redeyes are terrible for me. However what you mention with the redeye then turning to early show would be my #1 preference if I had to do a redeye. I can deal with staying up for one night, especially just one leg...then getting a nap, a normal day, and returning to my normal schedule sleeping at night is much better for me. I would never really get out of my rhythm, where having a multinight redeye pairing would be difficult as it is complete opposite from my home life and would cause disruption with me trying to go back and forth.

 

the circadian “window” doesn’t belong to the pairing, it belongs to the pilot operating that pairing. If a pilot has been operating this type of pairing all month long, he/she has had time to adjust. If any pilot who operates this pairing is used to being awake during the day and sleeping at night prior to starting this pairing, it is outside of their window/rhythm. It can take a normal person over a month to fully adjust from day walker to night walker.

 

To me, the redeye to the east coast with a 24 hour overnight followed by an early AM show is the worst! I can't deal with those. I much prefer the 12 hour overnight after the redeye

 

Funny...IF I had to do a red eye what you just described is what I prefer lol. I take a nap when I get to the hotel, grab lunch, get in a workout, have a couple drinks with dinner and right to sleep again.

 

I agree. If I have to do a red-eye, this at least keeps me in the same late circadian window, and makes the trip go by fast. It’s amazing that the 24-hour flip-flop to early east coast morning flying works for anyone’s body. I end up tired all day after I wake, but then snap awake at 21:00 or so and am lucky to get to sleep by 2:00 or 3:00am. I’m an absolute zombie flying back in morning.


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Everyone’s body is so different. I, personally, can go from a day schedule to functioning at full capacity during a night schedule pretty quickly. The late night to early morning swaps during a pairing, on the other hand, are torture. Early morning to late night... not so bad. 117 muddied it up by trying to be overly scientific. Any regs set in accordance with circadian rhythm are like buying a dress shirt off the rack. It’s made to a very narrow viewed version of the “average” person and provides a middle ground, but won’t fit 90% of people perfectly.

I can distinctly remember circa 2007, on reserve at a regional, doing 5-6 legs per day over a 14 hour duty day having gotten maybe 4 hours of sleep the night before. On a regular basis to boot. That was excruciating, even for an early 20s version of me. Change needed to happen, but it needed to incorporate more common sense measures.

 

It wasn't as prominent as the Denver downsizing, but the talk was there. I can say with certainty that the subject was brought up and discussed in my last recurrent ground school, and that was nearly a year and a half ago now (Thanks colas!). My post that you quoted was in response to Punkah Louvre's post who also has been hearing the same thing for just as long.

The company's ideal seams to be one and two day trips, with the one day trips made up of "V" shaped milk run style flights. Having more turns and single day trips allows for better recovery from a major delay that day (Cancel a turn and get back on schedule instead of 5 hours behind) allowing for better performance metrics. Also, having aircraft and crews come back through base more often, as well has having crews starting a pairing in base more often, allows for smoother, faster and better recovery from delays and IROP situations. Not to mention the cost savings of less hotel stays and paying out per diem.

I do agree with some of the other posters though. The amount of day turns in the current schedules are being blown way out of proportion. Just like the lack of open time. I don't doubt that we will see more one day trips and less four day trips going forward, but let the covid damage smooth out before we declare the sky to be falling. Nothing is normal right now and won't be until covid is in the rear view mirror.