How long for a contract?
01-18-2024, 10:28 AM
#411
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jun 2021
Position: Joystick Operator
Posts: 796
Originally Posted by ReserveCA
Isn't our proposed future fleet MOSTLY 321s?
Legacies get paid for the amount of seats on the plane, hence why our rates should be in line or higher than theirs. Just because "our business model doesn't drive the revenue that legacies do" doesn't mean you can cheap out on the pilots. You pay the same for planes, gas, gates, slots, etc as everyone else, pilots are no different.
Anything less than industry standard is an instant no vote and I hope the NC doesn't even try to push anything out to the pilot group unless it is standard. That is grounds for removal of them as United did.
01-18-2024, 01:09 PM
#412
Slave
Joined APC: Oct 2016
Position: Hot tub
Posts: 1,348
Originally Posted by spooldup
Yep... We are eventually going to have more 321s than 320s. Which means 230+ pax on each plane.
Legacies get paid for the amount of seats on the plane, hence why our rates should be in line or higher than theirs. Just because "our business model doesn't drive the revenue that legacies do" doesn't mean you can cheap out on the pilots. You pay the same for planes, gas, gates, slots, etc as everyone else, pilots are no different.
Anything less than industry standard is an instant no vote and I hope the NC doesn't even try to push anything out to the pilot group unless it is standard. That is grounds for removal of them as United did.
Legacies get paid for the amount of seats on the plane, hence why our rates should be in line or higher than theirs. Just because "our business model doesn't drive the revenue that legacies do" doesn't mean you can cheap out on the pilots. You pay the same for planes, gas, gates, slots, etc as everyone else, pilots are no different.
Anything less than industry standard is an instant no vote and I hope the NC doesn't even try to push anything out to the pilot group unless it is standard. That is grounds for removal of them as United did.
now let's talk work rule improvements
5 th week of vac a must.
pos space commuting to SJU a must
just to start.....
01-18-2024, 02:13 PM
#413
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jun 2021
Position: Joystick Operator
Posts: 796
Originally Posted by ReserveCA
ok so no less than $364.90
now let's talk work rule improvements
5 th week of vac a must.
pos space commuting to SJU a must
just to start.....
now let's talk work rule improvements
5 th week of vac a must.
pos space commuting to SJU a must
just to start.....
Better reserve and lower drop limits each month.
01-18-2024, 02:46 PM
#415
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jun 2021
Position: Joystick Operator
Posts: 796
Originally Posted by Beesknees
I don’t remember hearing that the company proposed drop to 35. Did we hear that anywhere but the video?
01-18-2024, 04:39 PM
#417
Line Holder
Joined APC: Sep 2017
Posts: 34
Absolutely! Do Not take anything that BB or BL say at face value. In his propaganda video BL did state The Association asked for hire than A320 rates at legacy airlines. Which, The Association may have. So what? We also proposed higher rates than B737, B717 and A220 as well, So what? We fly A321's with 230+ passengers, with more 321's coming. Of course we should stand firm on greater than 320 rates! The argument BL asserts F9 does not generate the same revenue as legacy carriers is absolutely true. But so is the fact we have less expenses per capita as well. F9's seniority list is a fraction of a legacy, fraction of the expense, fraction of cost of operation. We also dont have the expenses of paying a 29 year 787 and 777 Capt wages, per diem, and soft time to name a just a few. BL conveniently refused to disclose ULCC P/E ratio is 15.3 compared to UAL P/E ratio of 4.6. (P/E ratio stock price relative to earnings). While the cost of labor is multi-factorial, it should incentivise Indigo and BB to negotiate better lease terms, better long-term agreements with our subcontractors, better terms of payment to our creditors. There is Zero mention what F9 management is doing to control costs they have control or power to negotiate (Unless of course BB and BL are receiving kickbacks). I am unsure if BB or BL are equipped to negotiate such terms without Indigo holding BB's hand, or Franke opening up his rolodex of rainmakers to assist; "Hey, can you help the chubby kid?" Bottom line: If managaing and leading F9 were a check ride event, both BB and BL would be pink slipped, probably not even make it past the oral exam. The line pilots at F9 are top shelf, hard working, great people who take pride in their craft. We have always done a lot more with a lot less. No wonder UAL, DAL, AA love our pilots! It's shameful F9 leadership is incapabale of recognizing the good will, and truly great job our pilots do safely and consistently every day.
Last edited by monkeyboy511; 01-18-2024 at 04:56 PM.
01-18-2024, 04:58 PM
#419
Last To Know First To Go
Joined APC: Sep 2016
Posts: 605
Originally Posted by Mesabi
I try to avoid posting here but this is important.
Let’s fact check BL ourselves. He says F9 ALPA proposed pay rates higher than legacy 320 rates.
Well, I just so happen to have United’s 2024 pay table right here: https://d2r1lrrqctgamh.cloudfront.net/UAL/TA/upa23-2023-09-29.pdf
UA 2024 Airbus rates for 12 year captain are as follows:
A319,A319neo,A320,A320neo all pay $358.97
A321: $360.85
A321neo,A321xlr: $374.36
F9 ALPA did not propose separate pay rates for each variant of the A320 family but rather proposed one blended rate for all A320 types.
the 2024 F9 12 year captain proposed rate is $364.90.
so yes, on the surface ALPA proposed a higher rate than “legacy A320” pay rates (notice BL didn’t mention 321s? Convenient.)
BUT!! What if you average out the three different United rates into one blended rate? It comes to $364.73. So F9 ALPA asked for a whopping 17 CENTS more per hour.
BL is a lying union buster. He is intentionally twisting and misrepresenting facts to undermine our union’s efforts.
Everytime you read or watch something from BL or any other management stooge, do so with this at the forefront of your mind: these management stooges are actively trying to suppress and destroy your pay and quality of life in order to line their own pockets off your hard work. They are not working with you but actively working directly against you.
Let’s fact check BL ourselves. He says F9 ALPA proposed pay rates higher than legacy 320 rates.
Well, I just so happen to have United’s 2024 pay table right here: https://d2r1lrrqctgamh.cloudfront.net/UAL/TA/upa23-2023-09-29.pdf
UA 2024 Airbus rates for 12 year captain are as follows:
A319,A319neo,A320,A320neo all pay $358.97
A321: $360.85
A321neo,A321xlr: $374.36
F9 ALPA did not propose separate pay rates for each variant of the A320 family but rather proposed one blended rate for all A320 types.
the 2024 F9 12 year captain proposed rate is $364.90.
so yes, on the surface ALPA proposed a higher rate than “legacy A320” pay rates (notice BL didn’t mention 321s? Convenient.)
BUT!! What if you average out the three different United rates into one blended rate? It comes to $364.73. So F9 ALPA asked for a whopping 17 CENTS more per hour.
BL is a lying union buster. He is intentionally twisting and misrepresenting facts to undermine our union’s efforts.
Everytime you read or watch something from BL or any other management stooge, do so with this at the forefront of your mind: these management stooges are actively trying to suppress and destroy your pay and quality of life in order to line their own pockets off your hard work. They are not working with you but actively working directly against you.
01-18-2024, 08:00 PM
#420
New Hire
Joined APC: Jan 2018
Posts: 4
Originally Posted by monkeyboy511
Absolutely! Do Not take anything that BB or BL say at face value. In his propaganda video BL did state The Association asked for hire than A320 rates at legacy airlines. Which, The Association may have. So what? We also proposed higher rates than B737, B717 and A220 as well, So what? We fly A321's with 230+ passengers, with more 321's coming. Of course we should stand firm on greater than 320 rates! The argument BL asserts F9 does not generate the same revenue as legacy carriers is absolutely true. But so is the fact we have less expenses per capita as well. F9's seniority list is a fraction of a legacy, fraction of the expense, fraction of cost of operation. We also dont have the expenses of paying a 29 year 787 and 777 Capt wages, per diem, and soft time to name a just a few. BL conveniently refused to disclose ULCC P/E ratio is 15.3 compared to UAL P/E ratio of 4.6. (P/E ratio stock price relative to earnings). While the cost of labor is multi-factorial, it should incentivise Indigo and BB to negotiate better lease terms, better long-term agreements with our subcontractors, better terms of payment to our creditors. There is Zero mention what F9 management is doing to control costs they have control or power to negotiate (Unless of course BB and BL are receiving kickbacks). I am unsure if BB or BL are equipped to negotiate such terms without Indigo holding BB's hand, or Franke opening up his rolodex of rainmakers to assist; "Hey, can you help the chubby kid?" Bottom line: If managaing and leading F9 were a check ride event, both BB and BL would be pink slipped, probably not even make it past the oral exam. The line pilots at F9 are top shelf, hard working, great people who take pride in their craft. We have always done a lot more with a lot less. No wonder UAL, DAL, AA love our pilots! It's shameful F9 leadership is incapabale of recognizing the good will, and truly great job our pilots do safely and consistently every day.
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