Another Screw Up in Training?
#12
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jun 2021
Position: Joystick Operator
Posts: 785
Imagine if the company treated the pilots well and there wasn't a need to get through 40+ new hires with 1200hrs every month.
Bet we wouldn't have these issues, but BL says this is alright. Just like not requiring route quals for South America.
Bet we wouldn't have these issues, but BL says this is alright. Just like not requiring route quals for South America.
#13
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Mar 2018
Posts: 248
Yes, I do believe the most recent event of mishandled accounting of one or more sim checkairman resulting in the disqualification of one or more pilot(s) makes this latest snafu the third (3rd) occurrence under J.O's watch. In order to correct this apparent serial probelm, those pilots effected by the mishandling of training will be required to re-train and re-qualify. I am interested in learning what cost F9 will incur to remove the pilot(s) from their schedule, get them in the sim, pay them for another sim event in addition to dropped flying, as well as sim and instructor cost(s). Who is accoutable? and what will be the consequences to those directly responsible? From an outsider looking in, would not BL ultimately be accountable? Can anyone come up with a cogent reason BL continues to cover and protect his lackey, JO? I mean really? three times? No changes? No wonder F9 is incapable of elevating themselves from the worst airline four years running.
#16
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2014
Position: Lineholder
Posts: 1,359
serious question/thought
Much like SWAPA sued Boeing for withholding information about aircraft systems, is there any way we (the union) can sue Frontier for inadequate training practices? There's obviously a precedent and just because most of our LCA/sim check peeps are decent instructors doesn't mean a thing in a mishap investigation. Who's gonna be left holding the bag on an NTSB investigation when it's determined that a pilot was UQ when he/she slid off the runway (or worse, the plane is at the gate, the pilot is doing everything right and a bag loader runs into the plane so badly an investigation is triggered)? You think the pilot will be given a pass because F9 training dept is incompetent?
This is more serious than I think some people think...
Much like SWAPA sued Boeing for withholding information about aircraft systems, is there any way we (the union) can sue Frontier for inadequate training practices? There's obviously a precedent and just because most of our LCA/sim check peeps are decent instructors doesn't mean a thing in a mishap investigation. Who's gonna be left holding the bag on an NTSB investigation when it's determined that a pilot was UQ when he/she slid off the runway (or worse, the plane is at the gate, the pilot is doing everything right and a bag loader runs into the plane so badly an investigation is triggered)? You think the pilot will be given a pass because F9 training dept is incompetent?
This is more serious than I think some people think...
#17
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Dec 2012
Posts: 2,103
serious question/thought
Much like SWAPA sued Boeing for withholding information about aircraft systems, is there any way we (the union) can sue Frontier for inadequate training practices? There's obviously a precedent and just because most of our LCA/sim check peeps are decent instructors doesn't mean a thing in a mishap investigation. Who's gonna be left holding the bag on an NTSB investigation when it's determined that a pilot was UQ when he/she slid off the runway (or worse, the plane is at the gate, the pilot is doing everything right and a bag loader runs into the plane so badly an investigation is triggered)? You think the pilot will be given a pass because F9 training dept is incompetent?
This is more serious than I think some people think...
Much like SWAPA sued Boeing for withholding information about aircraft systems, is there any way we (the union) can sue Frontier for inadequate training practices? There's obviously a precedent and just because most of our LCA/sim check peeps are decent instructors doesn't mean a thing in a mishap investigation. Who's gonna be left holding the bag on an NTSB investigation when it's determined that a pilot was UQ when he/she slid off the runway (or worse, the plane is at the gate, the pilot is doing everything right and a bag loader runs into the plane so badly an investigation is triggered)? You think the pilot will be given a pass because F9 training dept is incompetent?
This is more serious than I think some people think...
You can make up any scenario but as long as no alcohol was involved and an incident/accident wasn’t intentional asap should protect. Of course judgement in the decision making process is open to scrutiny as always.
#18
Line Holder
Thread Starter
Joined APC: Sep 2017
Posts: 34
In order to bring action against a party and prevail, the moving party must prove damages. In this case, if a pilot who is adversly effected, i.e loss of job, loss of promotion, rejection of employment, the aggrieved pilot may sue for damages owing to the "loss" he/she incurred as a direct result of negligence caused by the F9 training dept. Through a legal lens, at first blush this will be very difficult to prove. However, a "Vote of No Confidence" may be a more effective avenue F9 ALPA may pursue to remove those individuals responsible for the recurring FAA record keeping infractions effecting several pilots. I would hope a class action suit could be avoided simply by the FAA imposing sanctions, fines, and whatever additional punishment the FAA deems appropriate to correct this ongoing problem with F9's training dept. It appears the same names keep surfacing surrounding this specific issue. At the end of the day, BL is responsible and as such, he and JO, BD, and TS should be held accountable for what they have done and/or failed to do. You license is your livlihood. Considering PRIA, do you trust F9's training dept, BL to protect you if there is evidence to support you Dequal'd for whatever reason? Do you really want to be positioned to possibly be forced to explain what happend in hopes the listening party takes what you say at face value? C'mon guys, this needs to be corrected ASAP. Too much at stake to let this slide.
Last edited by monkeyboy511; 02-04-2024 at 11:57 AM.
#19
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Mar 2019
Posts: 361
serious question/thought
Much like SWAPA sued Boeing for withholding information about aircraft systems, is there any way we (the union) can sue Frontier for inadequate training practices? There's obviously a precedent and just because most of our LCA/sim check peeps are decent instructors doesn't mean a thing in a mishap investigation. Who's gonna be left holding the bag on an NTSB investigation when it's determined that a pilot was UQ when he/she slid off the runway (or worse, the plane is at the gate, the pilot is doing everything right and a bag loader runs into the plane so badly an investigation is triggered)? You think the pilot will be given a pass because F9 training dept is incompetent?
This is more serious than I think some people think...
Much like SWAPA sued Boeing for withholding information about aircraft systems, is there any way we (the union) can sue Frontier for inadequate training practices? There's obviously a precedent and just because most of our LCA/sim check peeps are decent instructors doesn't mean a thing in a mishap investigation. Who's gonna be left holding the bag on an NTSB investigation when it's determined that a pilot was UQ when he/she slid off the runway (or worse, the plane is at the gate, the pilot is doing everything right and a bag loader runs into the plane so badly an investigation is triggered)? You think the pilot will be given a pass because F9 training dept is incompetent?
This is more serious than I think some people think...
if someone slides off the runway, it certainly looks bad if they were signed off by someone who wasn’t signed off themselves. But, was that the REAL reason they slid off the runway?
I get that the paperwork must always be right. You can fly a flight and do everything correctly. But, if there’s a missing signature in the MX can, you’re still wrong.
yeah you’d lose in the court of public opinion, and you’d also lose in real court too.
TLDR: mishandled paperwork doesn’t necessarily mean failure of the system or improper training.
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