Originally Posted by fcoolaiddrinker

as long as the pilot didn’t know they dequaled due to a paperwork issue they would still be protected under the asap program just as if they hadn’t dequaled due to paperwork issues.
You can make up any scenario but as long as no alcohol was involved and an incident/accident wasn’t intentional asap should protect. Of course judgement in the decision making process is open to scrutiny as always.

Originally Posted by dracir1

OK.

The ASAP program is NOT a get out of jail free card. While it does provide "protection" or more simply an explanation of how/why a pilot shouldn't be found at fault for a FAA rule violation (or similar) doesn't mean the FAA couldn't come back and say that despite the explanation of not knowing, the pilot SHOULD have known or taken a larger interest into their own training/qualification, and therefore . . . Frankly, I don't know what the FAA might say (I don't suppose many really do).

Let's just make sure we don't represent ASAP as some sort of saviour/infallible program that it is not.

Originally Posted by dracir1

OK.

The ASAP program is NOT a get out of jail free card. While it does provide "protection" or more simply an explanation of how/why a pilot shouldn't be found at fault for a FAA rule violation (or similar) doesn't mean the FAA couldn't come back and say that despite the explanation of not knowing, the pilot SHOULD have known or taken a larger interest into their own training/qualification, and therefore . . . Frankly, I don't know what the FAA might say (I don't suppose many really do).

Let's just make sure we don't represent ASAP as some sort of saviour/infallible program that it is not.

Originally Posted by Aero1900

Fair enough.

I think that if you, as a pilot, missed a training event, you'd be right. But we are talking about inter dept record keeping error. I don't think any pilot is at any risk of certificate action in this case.

Originally Posted by monkeyboy511

In order to bring action against a party and prevail, the moving party must prove damages. In this case, if a pilot who is adversly effected, i.e loss of job, loss of promotion, rejection of employment, the aggrieved pilot may sue for damages owing to the "loss" he/she incurred as a direct result of negligence caused by the F9 training dept. Through a legal lens, at first blush this will be very difficult to prove. However, a "Vote of No Confidence" may be a more effective avenue F9 ALPA may pursue to remove those individuals responsible for the recurring FAA record keeping infractions effecting several pilots. I would hope a class action suit could be avoided simply by the FAA imposing sanctions, fines, and whatever additional punishment the FAA deems appropriate to correct this ongoing problem with F9's training dept. It appears the same names keep surfacing surrounding this specific issue. At the end of the day, BL is responsible and as such, he and JO, BD, and TS should be held accountable for what they have done and/or failed to do. You license is your livlihood. Considering PRIA, do you trust F9's training dept, BL to protect you if there is evidence to support you Dequal'd for whatever reason? Do you really want to be positioned to possibly be forced to explain what happend in hopes the listening party takes what you say at face value? C'mon guys, this needs to be corrected ASAP. Too much at stake to let this slide.

Originally Posted by hercretired

Per the FAA:

The objective of an ASAP is to encourage employees of air carriers, repair stations, or other entities (collectively referred
to as “eligible entities”) to voluntarily report safety information that may be critical to identifying potential precursors to accidents.

Per ALPA:

ASAP fosters a voluntary, cooperative, non-punitive environment for the open reporting of safety of flight concerns. Through such reporting, all parties will have access to valuable safety information that may not otherwise be obtainable. This information will be analyzed in order to develop corrective action to help solve safety issues and possibly eliminate deviations from Federal Aviation Rules.

not sure how ASAP would apply to administrative paperwork issues in training department. Many have already agreed that nobody is flying around unsafe or incompetent as a result of these issues.

Originally Posted by fcoolaiddrinker

ERC has wide discretion on what is accepted into the program. Paperwork issues have in the past provided protection from logbook errors (flying with open write ups discovered days later). Timelines can be discretionary. Generally it’s 24 hrs from end of sequence (or when you’re first aware of the issue) but that can be extended. Theres an advisory circular outlining asap programs and how there supposed to work. It’s 20 plus pages so a bit more to it than that one paragraph.

Originally Posted by hercretired

agree, but those are all "flying, or intent to fly, a real airplane" occurences.

Training department run via colored highlighters, post it notes, and phone tag, is probably not what the ASAP program was designed for.

(But quite possible it fully fits in there)

Originally Posted by fcoolaiddrinker

Right. If I was told that I flew when I wasn’t legal due to f9 paperwork error I would file an asap. It would be unreasonable for me to have to actually view documents from required training instructors every six months. Pretty sure the feds (with a union rep sitting there) would agree.