uh, what ?

 

What of that is that hard for you to understand?

 

ummm, wat?

 

Lets talk “perspective.”

We like to think we are talking apples to apples by comparing us to legacies because we fly the same airplane they do. Then, we boast that our aircraft have more seats than the legacy variant of the Airbus. So, we definitely should be paid the same. Heck… we should get more!!!

Just a quick google reveals Delta moves 200M people annually.

Using numbers here on APC profiles, 737’s and A319’s/320/321’s make up 56% of the Delta fleet.

56% of 200M is 112M people moved annually by Delta narrow body pilots.

Frontier moves 30.2M people annually. That’s just 27% of what Delta does.

NOW, BEFORE ANYONE GOES BALLISTIC ON MY MATH BEING TOO LINEAR. I GET IT, BUT I WASN’T GONNA DIG AROUND TO FIND OUT EXACTLY HOW MANY FLIGHTS ANNUALLY THEIR NB FLEETS MAKE.

The point is: It matters that Delta has far more opportunities (flights per day) to unalive people than F9. They move way more people than we do and they do it in aircraft with less seats than ours.

This is what a bean counter sees when it comes to compensation. Not how many seats on an airplane.

 

They also have more aircraft and more pilots.

DAL's 117 rules are the same as ours.

The requirement to not "unalive" ourselves, our crew, and our passengers is equivalent.

Pax in seats varies and really shouldn't matter. Total pax moved shouldn't matter.

What's consequential is the market for a bus pilot and the comparison posted by our MEC clearly shows we're far below the standard.

Our pay should mirror the market.

 

I agree 100%. We should get the going rate for an Airbus pilot. It shouldn’t matter who we are flying for. A start valve costs the same whether you put it in an airplane with a weasel on the tail or a red delta on the tail. Pilots should be no different.

The reality though, is that it does matter.

 

it doesn’t matter accurately.


southwest is a low cost carrier.

we are a low cost carrier.


Southwest is the highest paid NB pilots.

Full stop. We should be paid same or more. We have a lower CASM. They should increase RASM. But we should at least make the going rate for airbus pilots.


if being a LCC for frontier means making less the business is unsustainable and a plight to the industry and we should go out of business.


if you’re saying we deserve less. Let’s just quit and go to the bottom of a decent carrier.


you’re worth what you negotiate. Get better at negotiating for your value. Because this whole idea we deserve less is embarrassing for you. When you consider Southwest makes the most doing the same job as a legacy as a low cost carrier.

MRA or bust. We deserve it.

 

My honest advice man is to get hired by a legacy. It stings to hear but F9 is never going to get within striking distance of pay and QOL of a legacy. I want them to because they bring down the average when contract negotiations roll around. But it ain’t gonna happen.

I worked at F9 for 6 years. I was around 50% seniority at the entire airline, making left seat pay for the first time in my life, driving to work, life was good. It was really tough to give up. I got hired in 2016 under the pre contract rates. We didn’t even have DC yet for retirement, just the 50% match up to 10% of your income.

When I would fly with captains and tell them Delta was shooting for 25% DC for C2019, way, WAY too many of the captains said something to the effect of: “well if you want that then go to Delta”. Despite their defeatist attitude, F9 did get defined contribution in the contract, albeit lagging the percentages of the legacies.

My point is that there are WAY too many pilots there that believe Frontier is the WalMart of the skies (a direct quote from several) and believe they should be treated as such. On the bottom end are new pilots who want to get their time and get out. The pilot group as a whole is never going to stand up for themselves and get the contract they deserve.

I considered making Frontier the last stop of my career. For years actually, especially once I upgraded and covid hit. But it was the conversations with so many pilots that finally kicked me out the door. I realized we were never getting legacy rates and QOL. There are lots of reasons why, including economic forces beyond the pilots’ control. But I couldn’t lie to myself anymore and say the pilot group wasn’t at least partially responsible.

 

cool story bro. 10,700 pilots of the 17,000 were hired at each legacy. Average age of 41-46. So 19-24 years of being an FO since hiring normalized. But thanks for the unsolicited advice. You clearly don’t understand collective bargaining or career earnings Research. Enjoy your career.

 

so in your analogy is Southwest considered Target? How about Delta? Maybe they’re Wholefoods!

give me a break dude. Airlines change and so do management groups… look at Southwest, perfect example. Don’t go saying what any airline career expectations are going to be because no one knows. You clearly are biased in having it work out and having some great seniority progression. Which is fine, but just realize everyone has reasons for making their life choices… AND fighting to compensated like a professional should not a taboo subject.