False, we will always make less than the legacy pilots because they make more money for their companies. It’s like this in so many industries so I don’t understand why so many people are pressed about it. Chefs at higher end restaurants get paid more to make the same steak, and yes they make it better just like the legacy pilots make air travel better for their customers. NBA players get paid more than WNBA because there company makes more money. Until we start making what the legacies make percentage wise let’s stop with the daydreaming.

 

In 2024 Frontier got 9.47 cents revenue for every seat mile.
In 2024 Delta got 21.37 cents revenue for every seat mile.

Delta gets more than 2X revenue per seat mile.

 

For just A320/A321 aircraft?
Or does that include WB FC/BC?

I concede DALs revenue is likely higher even if adjusted for type, but I'd be interested to see an apples-to-apples comparison.

 

It’s true legacies make more money make more money, but their pilots don’t individually make more money for their companies. What specifically does a legacy pilot do that F9 pilots aren’t? What is the legacy pilot doing that warrants additional pay? In fact, F9 lacks the support structure some other pilots enjoy, so I argue our pilots are actually doing more in terms of actions taken toward accruing profit.

Chefs at higher-end restaurants get paid more not to “make the same steak” but to use their skills and experience to make a particular steak unlike any other steak available on the market. They may use dry aged meat, Wagyu sourced from Japan, or rare game that would suffer from even a moment of extra heat.

Unlike chefs who influence the preponderance of the customer experience by virtue of what they plate, 121 pilots have a comparatively miniscule role. Make a few announcements, turn on a sign, shout out a birthday, talk about the weather? Perhaps. But probably silent for almost the entire flight.

Legacy and F9 pilots fly the same A320 and A321 aircraft. The FAA type rating is the same. The runways, airports, and approaches are the same. The pilots are locked in their cockpit and therefore I assert they cannot substantively affect profit any differently than an F9 pilot.

NBA/WNBA? When’s the last time customers flooded to a legacy because a particular pilot (save perhaps Sully) is at the controls? Fans specifically go to watch NBA/WNBA stars. The comparison between NBA/WNBA is a false equivalency. There are so many other factors at play including the derision of female sports, the economics of advertising/broadcasting rights (also historically male-dominated), advertiser choices and so forth. Airline customers care little to see us unless they’re touring a kid or want to joke about a landing. Most customers simply want to get from A to B safely and in relative comfort. It’s not daydreaming to demand we receive pay equal to our counterparts. And “pay” might not all reside in the hourly rate. Maybe it’s DC. Maybe it’s LTD. Maybe a combo. Kit Darby just highlighted SWA as having the highest total career earnings.

If we’re serious about having a “career contract” then it shouldn't be a “daydream”. If we're serious then the economic proposal put forth by the NC has merit and we should rally behind that effort.

The same pay, for the same license, for the same aircraft, via the same SIDs/STARs, to the same airports.

I respect you Bus; if you truly think it's fantasy, perhaps our NC should revise our collective expectations.

 

You aren't going to get one because airlines aren't required to publicly report them. Also you can't remove FC and say its "apples to apples" because Delta pilots flying Airbus are flying those FC seats and they generate more revenue. So if your Airbus are all coach and Delta is flying FC then they should certainly make more money since they are flying far more revenue.

I bet they still have a 50% higher RPM than F9 does.

 

This is the answer Grok gave. Remember Grok is an AI and doesn't have an agenda (we hope) and no emotional connection to either argument.

Several factors could justify a Delta Airlines pilot flying an A320 earning more than a Frontier Airlines pilot flying the same aircraft:

1. Career Trajectory and Pilot Retention: Delta is often a destination airline for pilots, attracting seasoned aviators who see it as a long-term career goal with higher pay and stability. In contrast, Frontier operates as a mid-tier, stepping-stone airline, where many pilots—especially younger ones—gain experience before moving to top-tier carriers like United, American, or Delta. This dynamic means Delta tends to employ pilots who’ve reached a career pinnacle, while Frontier’s workforce includes less senior pilots, impacting pay scales.
2. Company Revenue and Profitability: Delta generates significantly higher revenue and operates on a larger scale than Frontier. This financial capacity allows Delta to offer higher salaries while maintaining profitability. Frontier, as an ultra-low-cost carrier, prioritizes keeping operational costs—including labor—lower to offer competitive ticket prices.
3. Benefits and Perks: Beyond base salary, Delta pilots often receive better retirement plans, health benefits, and profit-sharing bonuses, which effectively increase their total compensation package compared to Frontier’s leaner offerings.
4. Market Positioning: Delta competes as a premium airline, which supports paying pilots more to attract and retain top talent. Frontier, aiming for cost efficiency, might not prioritize the same level of pilot compensation to keep fares low.
5. Profit Margins: Frontier operates on razor-thin profit margins compared to Delta, which enjoys robust profitability from its larger scale and premium market position. Paying Frontier pilots the same as Delta’s could push Frontier into unprofitability, as its low-cost model relies on keeping expenses—including labor—tightly controlled.

 

So if the international market or CC game collapses overnight and Frontier is suddenly more profitable than Delta should their pilots make less than us? Unlikely but let’s just say hypothetically….

 

1. Not related to what pilots do or don't. Plus, "Frontier's workforce includes less senior pilots". Using that logic the total pay requirement would be reduced because not everyone is a 12 year CA.
2. This has been the crux of our discussion. I don't think less revenue alone should be a killer for F9 pilots.
3. True, but so what? Our NC seems to want this as well: "career contract"
4. Unrelated to pilot actions. F9 can market themselves however they wish. Even BB tried moving away from "ULCC" in his attempt to undermine SWA.
5. Not a pilot problem.

When my ballot arrives I know how I'm voting.

If our discussions are now reduced to AI cut & paste, this is pointless.

 

Maybe Grok should negotiate our contract then.

 

mic drop….