I completely agree. As Spirits Ted said something along the lines of, “it’s not a fair fight.” I believe the only realistic way to compete going forward is via mergers or depressed labor costs. As such, here we are.

 

At the time, the term ULCC had not been used yet. Frontier was considered a LCC and had a great product and devoted loyal customers.

SWA was also a LCC and grew to the behemoth that it is now while always leading the industry in pilot pay.

Why do so many of you believe that the low cost model (whatever you want to call it, LCC or ULCC) has to be associated with low pilot pay?

 

because management does a good job convincing people they don’t deserve it or they would be the reason people lose jobs if they’re fairly compensated.

we deserve fair compensation. We are last in negotiations so we should have the highest pay rates in the industry for at least the time it takes for the legacies and other carriers to negotiate their new rates.



If you read the filings there have been some changes in the last year. Firstly indigo divested and we are no longer majority owned by them. Indigo filed to be passive. Will Franke filed to be more passive. The impact of those two events and the fact that WF is 84 meaning he is likely to step further and further back from his active roles and inputs at time goes on. I strongly believe we can manage a better contract going forward. Especially 3 years from now. But I hope well before that time point. There is plenty of casm available for pay raises to frontier’s employees to reach equality with legacy and other pilots. Vote yes for a good contract. Be willing to take the time hit to be another couple years behind while we wait for the new rates to roll in then demand parity.

 

Where did I say I believe that? I asked the question because if we were a low cost carrier with industry leading rates at one point, and it sounds like we were, the current argument that F9 can no longer have industry leading rates because we’re a ULCC is a weak one.

 

It’s a good thing Frontier is getting First class Seats and now bundling fares. I’m pretty sure by definition that makes us a LCC along with JetBlue and Southwest. Barry can adjust his contract expectations appropriately to match the “New Frontier” business plan.

 

How does he adjust his contract expectation from zero??

 

Zero almost sounds like an improvement from asking for concessions in every meeting

 

Exuse is going to be "it's not a true first class just bigger seat... " While promoting it and selling it as "first class."

 

https://ir.flyfrontier.com/static-files/9c4cfb2e-beaf-426b-be2f-dc6c5bb97772



frontier still claims to be an ULCC in their most recent 10K on page 4. But we’ve all seen Southwest align with our current model of Ala carte. Does this mean we deserve Southwest rates? Absolutely.


Additionally when comparing metrics we use these carriers :”Amcrican Airlines, Delta Air Lines, United Airlines, Southwest Airlines, Alaska Airlines, JetBlue Airways, Hawaiian Airlines, Spirit Airlines, and Allegiant Air.”

so when we are being compensated we should receive the average of those carrier rates excluding those still negotiating. With a pay rise adjusted for inflationary increases.

Note we are not comparing our metrics to regional carriers. So we shouldn’t be paid like them.


Even in our filing they talk about cost advantages and how they will accomplish it. No where does it say keeping wages low. So don’t get into your head we deserve even a cent less. We get what we negotiate and that should be industry standard rates. Anyone saying we can’t afford it hasn’t done the math. It’s like $6 a ticket increase in cost. They don’t want to increase the cost a few dollars for you to be paid fairly because they “management” profit personally off keeping our wages lower than the industry rates.


the highest paid pilots narrow body are a low cost mode Southwestl. We are shifting closer and closer to that low cost model and away from ULCC. We deserve better compensation and they know it. Don’t do the Companies negotiations for them. Our job as a union is to reach parity and that means current rates plus additional pay. Not just current rates delayed until we are compensated 20-30% behind the industry.

 

NO NO NO!!!!

So in the game of negotiations, the LAST one to negotiate does NOT look to obtain the average of those before them. They seek to EXCEED them. Getting a higher rate means all those w/ SNAP UP CLAUSES will get one as well.

Why the F are we so adament about receiving even just $0.01 less? Are we less of a pilot force? Is it because our airlines sucks in just about every customer service metric that we assume that means we must also in pilot pay? We don't have S to do with that (and in fact, are part of the reason why the airline has any successas at all).

Where in the world does this consistent feeling of "Well, I'd like to get what everyone else has but if it's just a little less, that's OK" come from? I hear it somewhat often on the line.

F THAT !!!!!! F THAT COMPLETELY.

YOU ARE A HIGHLY TRAINED, HIGHLY SKILLED, MOST ASSUREDLY CAPABLE Airbus 320/321 pilot who has to deal w/ SO MUCH MORE S than just about everyone else in the industry. You fly w/ LIDO instead of Jepps or Foreflight. You carry 20-30% more passengers and carry lower paying (Greyhound) level customers who are more prone to destruptive behavior than any other airline. You are subject to less training for more safety averse routes/special qualification airports. Your average delay time is 3rd highest in the industry and your airline was voted the 2nd worst airline experience (behind WestJet) in North America.

You do SO MUCH for a management staff that does not give a S about you. The continually delay giving you a raise. They change flying models to suit their desires which ends up with YOU having to pay more in terms of commuting costs and missed perdiem. They purposefully design a network and pairing groups to promote inefficient trips to include 10 hour 3 day flights. Hell, they even have the audacity to send out company videos from the VP of Flt Ops or CEO telling you that they want to give you fair deal but your UNION is stopping that...

I have mentioned MANY times, the only reason F9 is in business today is because of the seniority based system - without it, the company would've folded long ago.

DO NOT VOTE "Yes" on ANYTHING less than $1 more of the A321 rate being paid to each and every UA/DL/AA pilot. Yes, I wrote MORE THAN the going rate. VOTE "No" on ANY contract that does not include a snap up clause/provision. AND absoletly, positively, do NOT vote on any type of contract that promises anything (I don't care if the rate is $500/hr) w/o an IRONCLAD grievance policy that requires the company to address every single grievance within the next "cycle" or the grievance is automatically granted to the pilot. Without that, they company will promise the moon and deliver S and tell you to grieve it....

YOU ARE WORTH IT. YOU HAVE WORKED HARD TO GET WHERE YOU ARE. YOU ARE NOT LESS THAN ANY OTHER PILOT IN AMERICA!!!!



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