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Old 12-01-2018, 10:59 PM
  #11081  
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Originally Posted by Moonwolf View Post

You sound like a joy to fly with, I bet you'll be a great captain
And you sound like a great candidate for Delta.
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Old 12-02-2018, 05:38 AM
  #11082  
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Originally Posted by Moonwolf View Post
So you start the checklist while the captain is talking to someone else?
Since that checklist was required prior to that talking, yes. It's gotta get done somehow. A stronger measure would be to break in on the cockpit to ramp loop, and say "no, hold the push, we're not ready yet." I bet you'd love that.

You get sad when the captain presses buttons without your permission?
Since that permission is required by our SOP, yes.

You sound like a joy to fly with, I bet you'll be a great captain
By now I probably don't have to spell out my opinion of weak captains whose ego can't handle acknowledging they're doing something wrong. Are you one?
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Old 12-02-2018, 08:16 AM
  #11083  
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Originally Posted by Moonwolf View Post
You sound like a joy to fly with, I bet you'll be a great captain
Originally Posted by TiredSoul View Post
And you sound like a great candidate for Delta.
Originally Posted by vessbot View Post
By now I probably don't have to spell out my opinion of weak captains whose ego can't handle acknowledging they're doing something wrong. Are you one?
It’s not hard to see that a pie fight is approaching, to be followed by infractions. Stop it now.
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Old 12-02-2018, 09:08 AM
  #11084  
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Originally Posted by vessbot View Post
Since that checklist was required prior to that talking, yes. It's gotta get done somehow. A stronger measure would be to break in on the cockpit to ramp loop, and say "no, hold the push, we're not ready yet." I bet you'd love that.



Since that permission is required by our SOP, yes.



By now I probably don't have to spell out my opinion of weak captains whose ego can't handle acknowledging they're doing something wrong. Are you one?
It doesn't sounds a like a weak captain, sounds like a sop can't think outside and see the big picture f/o to me. It's not a difficult job, I get the importance of doing checklists. However if you have to interject and tell the ground crew to stop then you create more of a distraction and a lack of crm. How about ask the cap, hey cap how about that before start check list...
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Old 12-02-2018, 09:16 AM
  #11085  
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Originally Posted by Moonwolf View Post
It doesn't sounds a like a weak captain, sounds like a sop can't think outside and see the big picture f/o to me. It's not a difficult job, I get the importance of doing checklists. However if you have to interject and tell the ground crew to stop then you create more of a distraction and a lack of crm. How about ask the cap, hey cap how about that before start check list...
Let me translate this OMC speak for everybody: In other words, no matter what happens it is always the FO's fault. Good thing that unlike OMCs, NTSB investigations usually come up with a different conclusion.
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Old 12-02-2018, 10:23 AM
  #11086  
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Originally Posted by Moonwolf View Post
It doesn't sounds a like a weak captain, sounds like a sop can't think outside and see the big picture f/o to me. It's not a difficult job, I get the importance of doing checklists. However if you have to interject and tell the ground crew to stop then you create more of a distraction and a lack of crm. How about ask the cap, hey cap how about that before start check list...
You're ordering the events out of sequence, it's a pushback checklist not a before start checklist. And when we're already pushing, it's too late for "how bout..." I can either simply just do it myself, or tell the tug crew to stop. I agree with you about the downsides of the latter option (toldja you'd love it!) which is why I don't do it.

But guess who's putting me in that position? Of course, the guy who sees the "big picture," too old, wise, and worldly to get hung up on "whatever they're teaching at the schoolhouse these days." Just like every one that's caused a wreck that stems from a SOP noncompliance. Here's the real big picture, you have a set of simple instructions you're required to follow so that everyone's singing off the same sheet: 1, 2, and 3. All you have to do is 1, 2, and 3; that's it! Easy. Done. This is really that simple, it's not some compound emergency Apollo 13 situation that might require you to get creative. And guess what, if you lack the ability to follow the instructions in the easy everyday straight forward case, that only lowers my trust in your ability to think your way through the compound emergency.
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Old 12-02-2018, 01:33 PM
  #11087  
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Originally Posted by vessbot View Post
A thousand times this.

You're reminding me of every time a CA talks over me doing the pushback checklist (usually, which I'm doing without him calling for it because he just straight up told the crew to push), or reads back his own checklist responses without looking at the indications, or does this nervous twitch when we're holding short of somewhere and every 20 seconds he lets go of the brakes and we roll forward a little, or pushes "execute" on the FMS without me confirming, etc.

Why isn't it a surprise all these things usually come in a package?
Going to have to agree 100% on this one. From experience, almost everytime I've found myself in an "awww sheeet..." moment it's been because I have been the one rushing or because I let someone else rush me. As a defensive measure, when I start to feel the pressure to rush or notice my flying partner rushing or upping the tempo, I try to be that much more vigilant and deliberate with my part of the equation.
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Old 12-02-2018, 02:10 PM
  #11088  
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The ones that say “you must be a joy to fly with” are usually the ones that are the DB’s.
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Old 12-02-2018, 02:13 PM
  #11089  
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When the doors are closed, I ask the F/Os if they are caught up and ready to go.

We run the “Before Start” Checklist to the “Anti Collision Light”.

I then ask the ground crew to ensure they have accomplished their final checks and equipment and pins removed from the jet.

We get our push back and start clearance... Finish the “Before Start Checklist - “Anti Collision Light —— On”... and away we go.

Takes a few seconds extra, but everyone is in the loop. No fuss no muss.
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Old 12-03-2018, 05:47 AM
  #11090  
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Originally Posted by captjns View Post
Takes a few seconds extra, but everyone is in the loop. No fuss no muss.
Yup. For me personally, the safest course until I see a tug driving away and the all clear signal is given, is to sit on my hands and not touch a friggin' thing or engage in some other task.
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