Tool of the day
12-02-2018 | 01:33 PM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Dec 2005
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From: 7ER B...whatever that means.
A thousand times this.
You're reminding me of every time a CA talks over me doing the pushback checklist (usually, which I'm doing without him calling for it because he just straight up told the crew to push), or reads back his own checklist responses without looking at the indications, or does this nervous twitch when we're holding short of somewhere and every 20 seconds he lets go of the brakes and we roll forward a little, or pushes "execute" on the FMS without me confirming, etc.
Why isn't it a surprise all these things usually come in a package?
You're reminding me of every time a CA talks over me doing the pushback checklist (usually, which I'm doing without him calling for it because he just straight up told the crew to push), or reads back his own checklist responses without looking at the indications, or does this nervous twitch when we're holding short of somewhere and every 20 seconds he lets go of the brakes and we roll forward a little, or pushes "execute" on the FMS without me confirming, etc.
Why isn't it a surprise all these things usually come in a package?
12-02-2018 | 02:13 PM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 6,231
Likes: 62
From: B-737NG preferably in first class with a glass of champagne and caviar
When the doors are closed, I ask the F/Os if they are caught up and ready to go.
We run the “Before Start” Checklist to the “Anti Collision Light”.
I then ask the ground crew to ensure they have accomplished their final checks and equipment and pins removed from the jet.
We get our push back and start clearance... Finish the “Before Start Checklist - “Anti Collision Light —— On”... and away we go.
Takes a few seconds extra, but everyone is in the loop. No fuss no muss.
We run the “Before Start” Checklist to the “Anti Collision Light”.
I then ask the ground crew to ensure they have accomplished their final checks and equipment and pins removed from the jet.
We get our push back and start clearance... Finish the “Before Start Checklist - “Anti Collision Light —— On”... and away we go.
Takes a few seconds extra, but everyone is in the loop. No fuss no muss.
12-03-2018 | 05:47 AM
Line Holder
Joined: May 2012
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12-03-2018 | 06:34 AM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Sep 2018
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You're ordering the events out of sequence, it's a pushback checklist not a before start checklist. And when we're already pushing, it's too late for "how bout..." I can either simply just do it myself, or tell the tug crew to stop. I agree with you about the downsides of the latter option (toldja you'd love it!) which is why I don't do it.
But guess who's putting me in that position? Of course, the guy who sees the "big picture," too old, wise, and worldly to get hung up on "whatever they're teaching at the schoolhouse these days." Just like every one that's caused a wreck that stems from a SOP noncompliance. Here's the real big picture, you have a set of simple instructions you're required to follow so that everyone's singing off the same sheet: 1, 2, and 3. All you have to do is 1, 2, and 3; that's it! Easy. Done. This is really that simple, it's not some compound emergency Apollo 13 situation that might require you to get creative. And guess what, if you lack the ability to follow the instructions in the easy everyday straight forward case, that only lowers my trust in your ability to think your way through the compound emergency.
But guess who's putting me in that position? Of course, the guy who sees the "big picture," too old, wise, and worldly to get hung up on "whatever they're teaching at the schoolhouse these days." Just like every one that's caused a wreck that stems from a SOP noncompliance. Here's the real big picture, you have a set of simple instructions you're required to follow so that everyone's singing off the same sheet: 1, 2, and 3. All you have to do is 1, 2, and 3; that's it! Easy. Done. This is really that simple, it's not some compound emergency Apollo 13 situation that might require you to get creative. And guess what, if you lack the ability to follow the instructions in the easy everyday straight forward case, that only lowers my trust in your ability to think your way through the compound emergency.
CRM is a two way street. So passive aggressively reading the before push checklist during the push is just as bad as not doing it at all. It’s to catch things before the push, not during. So if you are in a position where you are not able to compete this checklist, for whatever reason, you need to ask the CA to hold pushes in the future to do this checklist.
It’s not being passive aggressive by 1)complaining on a forum 2) reading it during the push to “get it on the CVR” or 3)you calling to “stop push” on your own.
If I forgot a checklist and the FO said nothing but got on the intercom to “stop push” to the tug, you have failed as have I.
CRM exists for a reason. It’s not there to sulk and complain from the right seat about how “old and non compliant” the CA is and not for him to sit and grumble about “these new FOs trying to run the show”. It’s to save your lives and the pax in the back. Decades of CRM saving lives backs this up.
Time to maybe take a step back and ask what you can do better as an FO to promote healthy CRM
12-03-2018 | 07:06 AM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 6,231
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From: B-737NG preferably in first class with a glass of champagne and caviar
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12-03-2018 | 10:09 AM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 4,065
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From: 767 Captain
Agreed. Maybe someone can explain what's on a "Before Pushback" checklist that couldn't be combined with the "Before Start" checklist. Do the one checklist, THEN call for push. Works just fine.
One other data point - when I worked at UAL, they required a split cockpit for the push. Don't know if they still do after the merger. Captain communicated only with the push crew, FO only with the ramp/ground. Reduced the chances of distractions or broken habit patterns with the push crew and accidentally taxiing before they were clear. Once the push was complete and the Captain was completely done with the push crew, he joined the FO on the radios. Made sense to me.
One other data point - when I worked at UAL, they required a split cockpit for the push. Don't know if they still do after the merger. Captain communicated only with the push crew, FO only with the ramp/ground. Reduced the chances of distractions or broken habit patterns with the push crew and accidentally taxiing before they were clear. Once the push was complete and the Captain was completely done with the push crew, he joined the FO on the radios. Made sense to me.
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