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Old 12-03-2018, 06:34 AM
  #11091  
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Originally Posted by vessbot View Post
You're ordering the events out of sequence, it's a pushback checklist not a before start checklist. And when we're already pushing, it's too late for "how bout..." I can either simply just do it myself, or tell the tug crew to stop. I agree with you about the downsides of the latter option (toldja you'd love it!) which is why I don't do it.

But guess who's putting me in that position? Of course, the guy who sees the "big picture," too old, wise, and worldly to get hung up on "whatever they're teaching at the schoolhouse these days." Just like every one that's caused a wreck that stems from a SOP noncompliance. Here's the real big picture, you have a set of simple instructions you're required to follow so that everyone's singing off the same sheet: 1, 2, and 3. All you have to do is 1, 2, and 3; that's it! Easy. Done. This is really that simple, it's not some compound emergency Apollo 13 situation that might require you to get creative. And guess what, if you lack the ability to follow the instructions in the easy everyday straight forward case, that only lowers my trust in your ability to think your way through the compound emergency.
Seems you’re new to the airline world, remember this works both ways.

CRM is a two way street. So passive aggressively reading the before push checklist during the push is just as bad as not doing it at all. It’s to catch things before the push, not during. So if you are in a position where you are not able to compete this checklist, for whatever reason, you need to ask the CA to hold pushes in the future to do this checklist.

It’s not being passive aggressive by 1)complaining on a forum 2) reading it during the push to “get it on the CVR” or 3)you calling to “stop push” on your own.

If I forgot a checklist and the FO said nothing but got on the intercom to “stop push” to the tug, you have failed as have I.

CRM exists for a reason. It’s not there to sulk and complain from the right seat about how “old and non compliant” the CA is and not for him to sit and grumble about “these new FOs trying to run the show”. It’s to save your lives and the pax in the back. Decades of CRM saving lives backs this up.

Time to maybe take a step back and ask what you can do better as an FO to promote healthy CRM
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Old 12-03-2018, 07:06 AM
  #11092  
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Originally Posted by Dolphinflyer View Post
Yup. For me personally, the safest course until I see a tug driving away and the all clear signal is given, is to sit on my hands and not touch a friggin' thing or engage in some other task.
Perfect moment of peace and quiet to finish that cup of coffee.
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Old 12-03-2018, 08:36 AM
  #11093  
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This all sounds very complicated.
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Old 12-03-2018, 08:36 AM
  #11094  
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Originally Posted by Learflyer View Post
The ones that say “you must be a joy to fly with” are usually the ones that are the DB’s.

This x1000!
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Old 12-03-2018, 08:46 AM
  #11095  
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Originally Posted by at6d View Post
This all sounds very complicated.
Wasted cyber space.
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Old 12-03-2018, 10:09 AM
  #11096  
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Originally Posted by at6d View Post
This all sounds very complicated.
Agreed. Maybe someone can explain what's on a "Before Pushback" checklist that couldn't be combined with the "Before Start" checklist. Do the one checklist, THEN call for push. Works just fine.

One other data point - when I worked at UAL, they required a split cockpit for the push. Don't know if they still do after the merger. Captain communicated only with the push crew, FO only with the ramp/ground. Reduced the chances of distractions or broken habit patterns with the push crew and accidentally taxiing before they were clear. Once the push was complete and the Captain was completely done with the push crew, he joined the FO on the radios. Made sense to me.
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Old 12-03-2018, 06:21 PM
  #11097  
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Originally Posted by Ducttape View Post
Seems you’re new to the airline world, remember this works both ways.

CRM is a two way street. So passive aggressively reading the before push checklist during the push is just as bad as not doing it at all. It’s to catch things before the push, not during. So if you are in a position where you are not able to compete this checklist, for whatever reason, you need to ask the CA to hold pushes in the future to do this checklist.

It’s not being passive aggressive by 1)complaining on a forum 2) reading it during the push to “get it on the CVR” or 3)you calling to “stop push” on your own.

If I forgot a checklist and the FO said nothing but got on the intercom to “stop push” to the tug, you have failed as have I.

CRM exists for a reason. It’s not there to sulk and complain from the right seat about how “old and non compliant” the CA is and not for him to sit and grumble about “these new FOs trying to run the show”. It’s to save your lives and the pax in the back. Decades of CRM saving lives backs this up.

Time to maybe take a step back and ask what you can do better as an FO to promote healthy CRM
All this ^^^^^

( We really need a like button)
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Old 12-04-2018, 03:17 AM
  #11098  
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Originally Posted by Ducttape View Post
Seems you’re new to the airline world, remember this works both ways.

CRM is a two way street. So passive aggressively reading the before push checklist during the push is just as bad as not doing it at all. It’s to catch things before the push, not during. So if you are in a position where you are not able to compete this checklist, for whatever reason, you need to ask the CA to hold pushes in the future to do this checklist.

It’s not being passive aggressive by 1)complaining on a forum 2) reading it during the push to “get it on the CVR” or 3)you calling to “stop push” on your own.

If I forgot a checklist and the FO said nothing but got on the intercom to “stop push” to the tug, you have failed as have I.

CRM exists for a reason. It’s not there to sulk and complain from the right seat about how “old and non compliant” the CA is and not for him to sit and grumble about “these new FOs trying to run the show”. It’s to save your lives and the pax in the back. Decades of CRM saving lives backs this up.

Time to maybe take a step back and ask what you can do better as an FO to promote healthy CRM
Yeah this is right on.
These younger group of millennial FOs I've flown with over the past couple of years are like a Star Trek convention. Everybody wants to be a captain. Very irritating and a challenge to good CRM.
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Old 12-04-2018, 06:24 AM
  #11099  
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Originally Posted by butthert View Post
Yeah this is right on.
These younger group of millennial FOs I've flown with over the past couple of years are like a Star Trek convention. Everybody wants to be a captain. Very irritating and a challenge to good CRM.

When I was an FO I felt that my job was to make the Captain’s job as easy as possible.

Most FOs do a good job but in regards to the complaints above most can be traced to an attitude of anxiously waiting to correct me as the Captain instead of using your knowledge to help me. I get zero joy out of pointing out errors of FOs and usually wait out mistakes so they can figure them out. If it isn’t unsafe or against SOPs let it ride.
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Old 12-04-2018, 09:49 AM
  #11100  
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Originally Posted by butthert View Post
Yeah this is right on.
These younger group of millennial FOs I've flown with over the past couple of years are like a Star Trek convention. Everybody wants to be a captain. Very irritating and a challenge to good CRM.
You've got the perfect username. "Butthert"
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