Cleaning = Duty
07-19-2018, 03:52 PM
#31
Banned
Joined APC: Feb 2009
Posts: 1,445
Originally Posted by queue
No, the company is lying like a lawyer is trained to lie. They didn't make a false statement. They made a statement that tricks you into thinking something but it isn't what they said. There are two issues:
They are just screwing with you. Who still is voting Yes and foolishly thinking these people are honorable? How many times have they lawyered things to their advantage? The latest email ought to provide all the evidence you need to see why we need a rock solid, legal-proof TA. BJ will not hesitate to lawyer the vagueness of TA 1.0 to their advantage.
I hope ALPA exploits their latest email to demonstrate how dirty these people really are. If *anyone* confronts you about cleaning on your way to work, gather evidence. Keep copies of all the relevant policies as they might change without you knowing it. The law is on your side, follow it. If you don't duty-on at cleaning time (assuming you are commuting to work on BJ), you are breaking the law.
This communique is for entertainment purposes only. It does not implicitly or explicitly acknowledge employment with any air carrier nor is any relationship implied. This communique does not represent the opinions or policies of ALPA or JB ALPA and does not represent the collective pilot group, ALPA, nor does it imply collective bargaining, advocacy, or workforce actions intended to disrupt operations.
- Is commuting "duty"? No... this is what the company said (note: they neglected to mention everything else in the letter).
- Is cleaning while commuting "duty"? Yes... per the FAA.
They are just screwing with you. Who still is voting Yes and foolishly thinking these people are honorable? How many times have they lawyered things to their advantage? The latest email ought to provide all the evidence you need to see why we need a rock solid, legal-proof TA. BJ will not hesitate to lawyer the vagueness of TA 1.0 to their advantage.
I hope ALPA exploits their latest email to demonstrate how dirty these people really are. If *anyone* confronts you about cleaning on your way to work, gather evidence. Keep copies of all the relevant policies as they might change without you knowing it. The law is on your side, follow it. If you don't duty-on at cleaning time (assuming you are commuting to work on BJ), you are breaking the law.
This communique is for entertainment purposes only. It does not implicitly or explicitly acknowledge employment with any air carrier nor is any relationship implied. This communique does not represent the opinions or policies of ALPA or JB ALPA and does not represent the collective pilot group, ALPA, nor does it imply collective bargaining, advocacy, or workforce actions intended to disrupt operations.
For once I am in absolute favor of people cleaning during non-rev travel. Especially during your 30 hours off between 4 day trips. Just make sure you call CS and duty on so they can remove your 4 day with pay.
07-20-2018, 05:13 AM
#34
The REAL Bluedriver
Joined APC: Sep 2011
Position: Airbus Capt
Posts: 6,887
Notice how company email said the rule doesn't apply because commuting is voluntary, they did *NOT* say the rule doesn't apply because cleaning isn't *REQUIRED*.
In other words, they could have said that you aren't required to clean, they *didn't*.
In other words, they could have said that you aren't required to clean, they *didn't*.
07-20-2018, 05:55 AM
#35
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: May 2012
Posts: 1,099
You aren't required to clean, period. The verbiage says "expected". For reference you are also expected to make 4 announcements during the course of a flight. You are expected to have a clean, pressed uniform, button the top button of your shirt. Do you all do that? Have you ever been called in for that?
There are rumors of pilots being disciplined for not cleaning. No pilot have EVER been disciplined for not cleaning. Pilots have been called in for getting into arguments with flight attendants over cleaning. Facts are facts.
Simply put, get on airplane get off airplane, go to work or home. No cleaning necessary.
There are rumors of pilots being disciplined for not cleaning. No pilot have EVER been disciplined for not cleaning. Pilots have been called in for getting into arguments with flight attendants over cleaning. Facts are facts.
Simply put, get on airplane get off airplane, go to work or home. No cleaning necessary.
07-20-2018, 06:05 AM
#36
Banned
Joined APC: Dec 2016
Posts: 1,132
Originally Posted by benzoate
You aren't required to clean, period. The verbiage says "expected". For reference you are also expected to make 4 announcements during the course of a flight. You are expected to have a clean, pressed uniform, button the top button of your shirt. Do you all do that? Have you ever been called in for that?
There are rumors of pilots being disciplined for not cleaning. No pilot have EVER been disciplined for not cleaning. Pilots have been called in for getting into arguments with flight attendants over cleaning. Facts are facts.
Simply put, get on airplane get off airplane, go to work or home. No cleaning necessary.
There are rumors of pilots being disciplined for not cleaning. No pilot have EVER been disciplined for not cleaning. Pilots have been called in for getting into arguments with flight attendants over cleaning. Facts are facts.
Simply put, get on airplane get off airplane, go to work or home. No cleaning necessary.
Furthermore, even the new hire terms of employment and website job description includes "light cleaning".
All that matters is what is written.
The Railway Labor Act Simplified
This communique is for entertainment purposes only. It does not implicitly or explicitly acknowledge employment with any air carrier nor is any relationship implied. This communique does not represent the opinions or policies of ALPA or JB ALPA and does not represent the collective pilot group, ALPA, nor does it imply collective bargaining, advocacy, or workforce actions intended to disrupt operations.
07-20-2018, 06:51 AM
#37
The REAL Bluedriver
Joined APC: Sep 2011
Position: Airbus Capt
Posts: 6,887
Originally Posted by benzoate
You aren't required to clean, period. The verbiage says "expected". For reference you are also expected to make 4 announcements during the course of a flight. You are expected to have a clean, pressed uniform, button the top button of your shirt. Do you all do that? Have you ever been called in for that?
There are rumors of pilots being disciplined for not cleaning. No pilot have EVER been disciplined for not cleaning. Pilots have been called in for getting into arguments with flight attendants over cleaning. Facts are facts.
Simply put, get on airplane get off airplane, go to work or home. No cleaning necessary.
There are rumors of pilots being disciplined for not cleaning. No pilot have EVER been disciplined for not cleaning. Pilots have been called in for getting into arguments with flight attendants over cleaning. Facts are facts.
Simply put, get on airplane get off airplane, go to work or home. No cleaning necessary.
Big difference. You are expected to clean while using your pass privileges, or they can take those privileges away. It's black and white. So unless you want to risk losing your benefits, it's required.
The "we haven't been penalized yet" cannot be verified (privacy of those counseled) and isn't good enough. We've been threatened with loss of benefits if we don't clean. That is all that matters and makes cleaning required.
07-20-2018, 06:57 AM
#38
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: May 2012
Posts: 1,099
Originally Posted by Bluedriver
Thank you for your opinion. Now the company email did NOT say the ruling is inapplicable because cleaning isn't *required*, it said it isn't applicable because commuting is voluntary.
Big difference. You are expected to clean while using your pass privileges, or they can take those privileges away. It's black and white. So unless you want to risk losing your benefits, it's required.
The "we haven't been penalized yet" cannot be verified (privacy of those counseled) and isn't good enough. We've been threatened with loss of benefits if we don't clean. That is all that matters and makes cleaning required.
Big difference. You are expected to clean while using your pass privileges, or they can take those privileges away. It's black and white. So unless you want to risk losing your benefits, it's required.
The "we haven't been penalized yet" cannot be verified (privacy of those counseled) and isn't good enough. We've been threatened with loss of benefits if we don't clean. That is all that matters and makes cleaning required.
In addition, EXPECTED is not REQUIRED and the company knows this. Paul Hockings email was very specific in its vagueness. The airline knows it cannot force a pilot to clean an airliner regardless. The FOM job description is very specific but they can suggest you help when using a voluntary service. I can honestly share with you I had an FA bring me bluegloves at TOD and I calmly showed him my ID, told him to take a picture if he liked and felt compelled to report me and that there was ZERO REQUIREMENT for me to clean anything. In standard fashion Jetblue pilots are simply making a mountain out of a mole hill.
This isn't anymore complicated than it sounds. You aren't required so you don't have to. They would like you to but thats it. Please email or call a rep.
07-20-2018, 07:08 AM
#39
The REAL Bluedriver
Joined APC: Sep 2011
Position: Airbus Capt
Posts: 6,887
Originally Posted by benzoate
Actually the penalization part can be verified. Ask your reps. This is public knowledge and confidentiality is not required in this type of event. The days of precedent setting are not applicable in this case.
In addition, EXPECTED is not REQUIRED and the company knows this. Paul Hockings email was very specific in its vagueness. The airline knows it cannot force a pilot to clean an airliner regardless. The FOM job description is very specific but they can suggest you help when using a voluntary service. I can honestly share with you I had an FA bring me bluegloves at TOD and I calmly showed him my ID, told him to take a picture if he liked and felt compelled to report me and that there was ZERO REQUIREMENT for me to clean anything. In standard fashion Jetblue pilots are simply making a mountain out of a mole hill.
This isn't anymore complicated than it sounds. You aren't required so you don't have to. They would like you to but thats it. Please email or call a rep.
In addition, EXPECTED is not REQUIRED and the company knows this. Paul Hockings email was very specific in its vagueness. The airline knows it cannot force a pilot to clean an airliner regardless. The FOM job description is very specific but they can suggest you help when using a voluntary service. I can honestly share with you I had an FA bring me bluegloves at TOD and I calmly showed him my ID, told him to take a picture if he liked and felt compelled to report me and that there was ZERO REQUIREMENT for me to clean anything. In standard fashion Jetblue pilots are simply making a mountain out of a mole hill.
This isn't anymore complicated than it sounds. You aren't required so you don't have to. They would like you to but thats it. Please email or call a rep.
Even the ALPA guidance that was just sent said it is "expected". That's a pretty strong word, maybe short of "required" as an individual term, but coupled with the signed contract saying you understand your pass privileges can be withdrawn, it's a pretty strong word.
ALPA did NOT say pilots aren't required by policy to clean. That would have been a simple public statement to make, but they haven't said that for pass riding.
07-20-2018, 07:44 AM
#40
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: May 2012
Posts: 1,099
Originally Posted by Bluedriver
If they haven't pulled someone's pass benefits yet, that doesn't mean they can't or won't. It's right there in the required training you signed. Unless you want to risk your benefits, it's required.
Even the ALPA guidance that was just sent said it is "expected". That's a pretty strong word, maybe short of "required" as an individual term, but coupled with the signed contract saying you understand your pass privileges can be withdrawn, it's a pretty strong word.
ALPA did NOT say pilots aren't required by policy to clean. That would have been a simple public statement to make, but they haven't said that for pass riding.
Even the ALPA guidance that was just sent said it is "expected". That's a pretty strong word, maybe short of "required" as an individual term, but coupled with the signed contract saying you understand your pass privileges can be withdrawn, it's a pretty strong word.
ALPA did NOT say pilots aren't required by policy to clean. That would have been a simple public statement to make, but they haven't said that for pass riding.
Jetblue has the word expect in various manuals. Take a look. From your uniform to the announcements you are to make in the aircraft. Flight Ops doesnt really care about this and therefore doesnt spend any extra time on it. There is no discipline associated with this and in the history of the airline has never suspended a pilots travel benefits over this specific scenario. Half our pilots can't even follow the uniform guidance and you think they will spend time pursuing disciplinary action because you didn't don a pair of bluegloves?
We have been in negotiations for 4 years and at times fairly contentious and nothing regarding this issue has ever happened. This is only an issue on the message boards because the reality is the airline is not concerned about this.
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