Fume Events
04-10-2019, 08:27 AM
#71
The REAL Bluedriver
Joined APC: Sep 2011
Position: Airbus Capt
Posts: 6,881
Originally Posted by PasserOGas
There IS NO WATER SEPARATOR. There is no dirty filter. They don't exist. What you describe is textbook fumes. It happens on descent due to valves opening to compensate for the reduction in thrust.
There was a video describing the reasons and times this was likely to happen (APU start, initial climb out, descent, almost never cruise), but now its locked behind the APA login page.
The most typical is a small puff of fumes on climb out, which passes and may or may not be noticable, then a major dose on descent as all the oil that has accumulated in the lines during the flight gets released by the wider open valves.
There was a video describing the reasons and times this was likely to happen (APU start, initial climb out, descent, almost never cruise), but now its locked behind the APA login page.
The most typical is a small puff of fumes on climb out, which passes and may or may not be noticable, then a major dose on descent as all the oil that has accumulated in the lines during the flight gets released by the wider open valves.
"Typical" event is oil seeps past the wet turbine shaft oil seal during cruise, oil vapors pool at areas within the ECS duct work that have bends/dips. When you begin a decent the engine bleed changes valves low pressure valve to high pressure valve to compensate for the low bleed output due to idle power and there is a pressure bump/spike that lifts the pooled oil in the ECS duct work and vaporizes it into the packs/cabin. Same can happen when switching bleed sources to APU from the pressure spike.
Then there are the major events. They happen when that engine oil turbine shaft seal (which on IAE engines operates at an unusually high 250+ psi) have a seal failure. When this happens the seal let's large quantities of oil by the seal and directly into the ECS system. This happens when a seal is damaged/worn except/fails. Very bad.
As to your previous question about baseline toxicity testing and the results, your body is always flushing toxins out. You inhale the toxins from the environment, and over time you flush them out. That doesn't mean you are not harmed in the process.
Also, the body can only flush so much at a time, so it's also a factor of are you taking in toxins faster than you can flush them out. But as Navy said, if you have annual baseline lab readings if you have a serious event, you are much more likely to be able to show elevated readings vs not having a baseline. Otherwise you can't prove an event harmed you, because the lawyers will just say that level is normal for you and you can't prove otherwise.
I want nothing more or less than a permanent tech or retrofit solution. There are rumored to be retrofit solutions available on the market.
04-10-2019, 08:34 AM
#72
Gets Weekends Off
Thread Starter
Joined APC: Mar 2019
Posts: 315
Originally Posted by Bluedriver
Bingo.
"Typical" event is oil seeps past the wet turbine shaft oil seal during cruise, oil vapors pool at areas within the ECS duct work that have bends/dips. When you begin a decent the engine bleed changes valves low pressure valve to high pressure valve to compensate for the low bleed output due to idle power and there is a pressure bump/spike that lifts the pooled oil in the ECS duct work and vaporizes it into the packs/cabin. Same can happen when switching bleed sources to APU from the pressure spike.
Then there are the major events. They happen when that engine oil turbine shaft seal (which on IAE engines operates at an unusually high 250+ psi) have a seal failure. When this happens the seal let's large quantities of oil by the seal and directly into the ECS system. This happens when a seal is damaged/worn except/fails. Very bad.
As to your previous question about baseline toxicity testing and the results, your body is always flushing toxins out. You inhale the toxins from the environment, and over time you flush them out. That doesn't mean you are not harmed in the process.
Also, the body can only flush so much at a time, so it's also a factor of are you taking in toxins faster than you can flush them out. But as Navy said, if you have annual baseline lab readings if you have a serious event, you are much more likely to be able to show elevated readings vs not having a baseline. Otherwise you can't prove an event harmed you, because the lawyers will just say that level is normal for you and you can't prove otherwise.
I want nothing more or less than a permanent tech or retrofit solution. There are rumored to be retrofit solutions available on the market.
"Typical" event is oil seeps past the wet turbine shaft oil seal during cruise, oil vapors pool at areas within the ECS duct work that have bends/dips. When you begin a decent the engine bleed changes valves low pressure valve to high pressure valve to compensate for the low bleed output due to idle power and there is a pressure bump/spike that lifts the pooled oil in the ECS duct work and vaporizes it into the packs/cabin. Same can happen when switching bleed sources to APU from the pressure spike.
Then there are the major events. They happen when that engine oil turbine shaft seal (which on IAE engines operates at an unusually high 250+ psi) have a seal failure. When this happens the seal let's large quantities of oil by the seal and directly into the ECS system. This happens when a seal is damaged/worn except/fails. Very bad.
As to your previous question about baseline toxicity testing and the results, your body is always flushing toxins out. You inhale the toxins from the environment, and over time you flush them out. That doesn't mean you are not harmed in the process.
Also, the body can only flush so much at a time, so it's also a factor of are you taking in toxins faster than you can flush them out. But as Navy said, if you have annual baseline lab readings if you have a serious event, you are much more likely to be able to show elevated readings vs not having a baseline. Otherwise you can't prove an event harmed you, because the lawyers will just say that level is normal for you and you can't prove otherwise.
I want nothing more or less than a permanent tech or retrofit solution. There are rumored to be retrofit solutions available on the market.
But if you did have an event and got tested with elevated readings, wouldn’t they eventually go back down and stabilize at the baseline? Therefore you can prove they were elevated only after the event and then subsequent tests showed they returned to normal baseline levels afterwards once your body flushed it out.
04-10-2019, 09:17 AM
#73
The REAL Bluedriver
Joined APC: Sep 2011
Position: Airbus Capt
Posts: 6,881
Originally Posted by localizer
Do you get these annual baseline tests? Seems to be a good idea just incase a catastrophic event does happen, you can be compensated.
But if you did have an event and got tested with elevated readings, wouldn’t they eventually go back down and stabilize at the baseline? Therefore you can prove they were elevated only after the event and then subsequent tests showed they returned to normal baseline levels afterwards once your body flushed it out.
But if you did have an event and got tested with elevated readings, wouldn’t they eventually go back down and stabilize at the baseline? Therefore you can prove they were elevated only after the event and then subsequent tests showed they returned to normal baseline levels afterwards once your body flushed it out.
04-10-2019, 09:18 AM
#74
Gets Weekends Off
Thread Starter
Joined APC: Mar 2019
Posts: 315
Originally Posted by Bluedriver
It's not important that the levels eventually go back down. What's important is the harm done while the levels are high. Pilots have been disabled permanently, or worse.
04-11-2019, 05:11 AM
#76
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Dec 2016
Posts: 478
Originally Posted by PasserOGas
There IS NO WATER SEPARATOR. There is no dirty filter. They don't exist. What you describe is textbook fumes. It happens on descent due to valves opening to compensate for the reduction in thrust.
There was a video describing the reasons and times this was likely to happen (APU start, initial climb out, descent, almost never cruise), but now its locked behind the APA login page.
The most typical is a small puff of fumes on climb out, which passes and may or may not be noticable, then a major dose on descent as all the oil that has accumulated in the lines during the flight gets released by the wider open valves.
There was a video describing the reasons and times this was likely to happen (APU start, initial climb out, descent, almost never cruise), but now its locked behind the APA login page.
The most typical is a small puff of fumes on climb out, which passes and may or may not be noticable, then a major dose on descent as all the oil that has accumulated in the lines during the flight gets released by the wider open valves.
04-11-2019, 06:16 AM
#77
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Aug 2005
Posts: 323
Originally Posted by Bluedriver
It's not important that the levels eventually go back down. What's important is the harm done while the levels are high. Pilots have been disabled permanently, or worse.
04-11-2019, 06:19 AM
#78
The REAL Bluedriver
Joined APC: Sep 2011
Position: Airbus Capt
Posts: 6,881
Originally Posted by Blue Dude
Elevated levels aren't the problem. TCP poisoning would show a much lower level. The blood test doesn't measure TCP in the blood. It does measure the enzyme that TCP poisoning destroys. Critically low levels of cholinesterase means that something has gone seriously wrong in your nervous system.
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