Realistic

[[QUOTE=bluebrother]very interesting statement, naive and ignorant, but interesting...

Naive and ignorant? I hear the same industry oversimplification from more pilots at Jetblue. The unions caused it all right? Tell that to the pilots at SWA.

you see, collective bargaining is exactly that, once you start to negotiate EVERYTHING is on the table. so what we have right now , could and possible not be there after your union reps start to negotiate. it could work out,(most likely not, due to the industry environment i.e. union pilots losing pensions, taking paycuts,etc,etc... but as we have seen from outstanding union representation at other airlines in the past 4 years, it could get worse.

I know exactly what representation/RLA entails - in detail. And in my estimation we have nowhere to go but up. But, representation elections do not happen (despite what you think) to bankrupt companies or to line peoples pockets. They happen out of a sense of helplessness, they happen when people get together and start to compare paychecks, they happen when people begin to feel that only agreeable voices are heard, they happen when a small group can seize a huge amount of control over pilots lives while feeding those same pilots with smokescreens, and making jokes about their inability to affect any change in the system. You may not think so, but there are about 20 pilots with a tremendous amount of power here and very little concern about what happens to pilots with less seniority than they have.

the REALITY is (again,as we have seen in the last 4 years from great union representation, a contract isnt worth the paper it is written on. just ask the united pilots, delta pilots (what happen to THEIR INDUSTRY LEADING PAYRATES. THEIR NO FURLOUGH PROTECTION in their COLLECTIVE BARGAINING agreement work out well)

Amazing that pilots would employ the very same scare tactics that managers go to school to learn. Again - this industry collapsed for many reasons, not the least of which were LCC taking control of the pricing structure.

realistic, YOU need to be realistic. as we all know, there will always be 10% of the employees who will be idiots. as far as redistribution of wealth, please compare the compensation packages of dave neeleman, dave barger, etc. to those of your wannabe airline executives.

When I speak about redistribution of wealth, I'm talking about the wealth that's distributed amongst the pilots. I could care less what the Dave's make. They're brilliant men and they deserve a return on their risk and investment.

as far as senior pilots getting better schedules and a better stock price. well, seniority has its privileges, they were the ones who interviewed in the beginning while you were probably saying: "jetwho, they wont make passed 3 years".........

Better schedules are appropriately seniority distributed (no problem here) and I could care less about stock price - mine's worthless. I have not been arguing for a raise nor have I complained about 190 rates. My arguments have focused solely on the disparity that premium pay creates. No other airline does this. I will not rehash the information that is thankfully saved on this web site except to say: "do you think that it's equitable that a 75 hour pilot should make 3000 a year less than his industry counterpart while a 90 hour pilot makes 3000 a year more than his industry counterpart. We could convert to straight pay tomorrow without a single dime being added to our bottom line and without making any change that isn't consistent with the seniority traditions of the entire industry. THIS is redistribution.

p.s. next time your in lgb, ask who is paying the lawyer bill (while it is still under investigation) for the pilot who showed up late for drug test??? :rolleyes

I suppose this is somehow suppose to reflect on the entire pilot population of LGB. No suprise. This is as oversimplified as waving the "scary" union flag.

Realistic

The really funny thing to watch is the people who suddenly become believers when the writing is on the wall for a 70% vote.
Gotta protect your interests.

Realistic

Back to the original subject of the five year contract:
Of course some contract is better than none and ours is similar in a lot of ways to a regular union contract.
The only exception is Section 12 which essentially puts every one of us on permanent probation.
I don't get a warm and fuzzy when I really read that section (every word and every comma) in detail.
Of course to a cool-aide drinker, every termination is a good one regardless of the facts or motives.

bluebrother

the real sad thing is believing that "brotherhood/solidarity etc.etc. will get you what "you think you deserve". ( i guess that is what the alaska airline pilots thought when they were negotiating their last "upward" contract).

Your statement: "we have nowhere to go but up" shows your true ignorances to the collective bargaining process. (especially when the industry is in chaos, which never favors a union in negotiations).

please do us a favor and do not run for union rep when your wannabe union comes to town. we'll probably end up worse than what the america west pilots or the alaskan pilots received with their new "industry standard contract".

btw: if you think that the southwest pilot and flight attendants are going to be able to keep that pay raise (in the financial condition southwest is in right now), then you are very, very, misguided.

Realistic

I didn't create our system of lopsided compensation and I never said anything about brotherhood. That is all just sentimental crap.
When a few hundred pilots (some hired less than a year before me) are pulling down $170,000 a year and I'm selling my house - then I'm not inclined to just go with the flow.
Representation is nothing more than a business deal. Sometimes it's about safety, sometimes it's about getting beat up by scheduling, sometimes it's about leveling the playing field, sometimes people get taken to the cleaners, and sometimes people do the right thing. Etc, etc, etc.
But I have never believed that it was about togetherness.
This is not a social club, it's not church, and it's not a dating service. It's where I intend to meet my long-term financial expectations.
If we could take a peek at some of the administration's contracts, I'm sure that the legal language in those documents would drive home that fact.

Blue 2

At last we agree "This is not a social club, it's not church, and it's not a dating service. It's where I intend to meet my long-term financial expectations."
And to do that it looks like you limit the earning power of others to satisfy your needs, oh I mean equalize the pay for our crews. At $125 an hour flat rate will you also equilize the hours one can work so those top 200 cannot make more than the bottom 200? No matter what you do there will always be pilots that make more than you for a number of different reasons. I might be one of them I don't know. I do not begrudge those that make $170K I aspire to join them, and I will in time.

"Representation is nothing more than a business deal" that is correct again we agree. And a signed pilot agreement is nothing more than your acceptance of the deal.

Although the pilot agreement stuff we likely really do agree on. I did not like the way it was derived or presented. But none the less I signed it and it is mine for a while. (Nuff said about that PA in this tread)

I do applaud you in that you are looking for ways to make it better, but what appears to me to be socialism is not the answer. Keep trying though maybe soon you can present something to JB management that will be good for everybody.

bluebrother

i question "the few hundred pilots" making $170,000. maybe check airmen, but not your average "senior captain". very unlikely. (i should know, im in the top 200 and flew over 850 hours and was not even close to that bizarre statement). if their telling you that, then their blowing smoke up your a**.

of course you didnt create this "lopsided"?? system. but when you make comparisions be fair. show me the difference between senior pilots here and other airlines.

if you want to meet your long-term financial expectations, then your better have a REALITY CHECK what industry your working in or find another profession to meet those goals. right now its about longevity. you will not obtain longevity when your too biggest expenses: labor and FUEL keep going up. i.e. us air, united, and now delta and northwest. so be very careful what you wish for right now.

again, this industry is in chaos. never has there been a time when every other airline is in bankruptcy or going into bankruptcy. your wannabee unions have given back all payraises (or got crap) they negoiatiated due to the state of this industry. (dont even start with the southwest contract because they'll be given that back too. just look at their 2005 financial statements)

im not happy about not receiving a cost of living adjustments or the 190 pay rates, but i know what industry im working in right now and know what can happen very quickly if your not intelligent.

p.s. who thought 5 years ago UNITED would be in their state of disrepair?? and it was not only due to inept management.

LuvJockey

Hello Jet Blue Board - I've been watching this board for a while with much interest, and I hope you don't mind some perspective from outside of your company.
There are lot of similarities between opinions on your boards and opinions on our association's board. One of the most divisive issues we have is the issue of stock options. We currently have a small group of pilots that are rapidly approaching retirement age, and never sold their stock options. They are vocally pushing a pay freeze at our current level (bypassing our 4.8% pay raise in Sep), most likely because they believe their stock options will appreciate rapidly before they retire. Meanwhile, those more junior with stock options that are worth a fraction of the senior pilot options are told by the same small group that their option appreciation will more than make up for the pay freeze (the numbers clearly don't indicate this).
Another quick thought - our association represents us and nobody else. If your pilot group and management is mostly reasonable, your association (union-gasp!) representation can be too. Collective bargaining can be fair and cordial. If you believe that they will voluntarily pay you what they can, you are free to do so.
One last thought - our management hasn't asked us for givebacks, and likely wouldn't get them barring a sizeable further downturn in the industry. We(and you) are still solidly profitable in a largely bankrupt industry. I would be willing to wager that our pay rates will hold up.
Got lots of buddies over there, sorry to infringe on your board. It's great there's a forum here for you. Bye!

Realistic

Here. I will show you the difference:
JetBlue 3 year 320 Captain at 95 hours: $149,008 a year.
Frontier 3 year 320 Captain at 95 hours: $137,940 a year.
next:
JetBlue 3 year 320 Captain at 75 hours: $ 107,424 a year.
Frontier 3 year 320 Captain at 75 hours: $ 108,900 a year.
In other words, the Captain at JetBlue makes nearly $42,000 more per year than his compadre while the Captain at Frontier makes almost $29,000 more per year than his fellow Captain.
Sign language now:
DOOOO.....YOOUUUU....UUUUNNNDDERRRSTAAAAAND?
There's a $13,000 disparity here and it makes me think that someone is featherbeding. Featherbeding is when someone sets up a system to help themselves at the expense of others. Maybe it was the pilots who like to wax nostalgic about New Air. Yeah, the ones with a couple year's of seniority on the rest of us.
Get it?
You like this system? Fine.
I'm just looking for democracy and democracy will come whether ya'll like it or not.

Realistic

Socialism? Oooooh another scary word.
Use your "Back" key on this web site. Look at the "Airlines" resource and compare every other 320 operator to us.
Then come back and make an argument that those pay scales are socialist.
I am asking for nothing more than an industry standard slope. Straight pay as opposed to premium pay is not Socialist. One could argue that premium pay is a good ole boy capitalist style of compensation but large numbers don't usually get to take part in good ole boy stuff.
INDUSTRY STANDARD SLOPE.
The suggestion that it is a socialist idea is just over the top propaganda with no basis in fact.