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Old 04-08-2016, 08:33 PM
  #7671  
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Originally Posted by pilotpayne View Post
Is the 717 in the same class as the 190?

I say why not go for even higher pay and keep it at a 10% difference. We could really be industry leading.
The 190 is not going to be ties to the Bus. Nor should it.
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Old 04-08-2016, 08:38 PM
  #7672  
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Originally Posted by BunkerF16 View Post
Oh....so now we're counting legs as a basis for baseline compensation?

As far as 1 payscale...other than UPS (which flies boxes, not people), who else does that?
No one. Which is kind of my point. I've always heard that it's the number of pax the crew is responsible for that has driven higher pay scales for bigger planes. My point is why, if pilot A flies 400 people a day in a 190 and pilot b flies 400 people a day in a bus, why does the bigger plane get the bigger pay check (especially if there are more opportunities for things to go south during takeoff/landing in the 190)? I guess the argument is that more people are being flown per hour in a bigger plane, but I just don't know how valid that argument is, which is why I posed the question.
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Old 04-08-2016, 09:34 PM
  #7673  
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Originally Posted by BeatNavy View Post
No one. Which is kind of my point. I've always heard that it's the number of pax the crew is responsible for that has driven higher pay scales for bigger planes. My point is why, if pilot A flies 400 people a day in a 190 and pilot b flies 400 people a day in a bus, why does the bigger plane get the bigger pay check (especially if there are more opportunities for things to go south during takeoff/landing in the 190)? I guess the argument is that more people are being flown per hour in a bigger plane, but I just don't know how valid that argument is, which is why I posed the question.
Sooooooooo using your logic, a RJ (70-90 seat) regional dude flying 5 legs a day should be paid $270hr (Delta 747 Captain 12-yr)? That sure would be a way to solve the hiring issue at the regionals......lol
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Old 04-08-2016, 10:50 PM
  #7674  
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Originally Posted by WARich View Post
Sooooooooo using your logic, a RJ (70-90 seat) regional dude flying 5 legs a day should be paid $270hr (Delta 747 Captain 12-yr)? That sure would be a way to solve the hiring issue at the regionals......lol
The regional model is fundamentally flawed and isn't exactly a good measure to compare to mainline pay scales. This is kind of a different topic, but since you brought it up I'll engage. Regional flying in a beech 1900 or dash, in an actual region, where pay was low (and supposed to be temporary), was one thing and shouldn't be in the same ballpark as major pay scales. But that design morphed as scope was sold and RJs grew and proliferated. Flying hub to hub in a "regional" airline in a jet with 80ish people on the exact same routes with the exact same passengers at the same speeds and altitudes isn't any different a job than the major airline pilot's job, but is comparatively grossly under-compensated. The paint job is the same, the routes are the same, the airplane's technology and operation is the same, the licensing and type rating requirements are the same, the pax are the same...the only difference is the paycheck and the company's associated application process. I think the newish guys flying turboprops for low wages until they get their crack at a real airline job was one thing when regionals were in their early form. Current "regionals" aren't the same as it was when the commuter/regional wages were created.

But because we have lived in this industry this way and slowly watched this regional idea morph out of control, but accepted it as status quo, most people (mainline pilots, regional pilots, and management included) accept the fact that if you fly a 100 set E190, you should make 2-3x as much as the same guy flying the same plane but with 24 fewer passengers. To anyone outside this industry, that is asinine and doesn't make sense. I don't think this regional model we currently have will be around in its current form for too much longer, but the way it is now isn't a fair comparison to my original statement.

But what if I'm a 60 year-old 30 year DL/AA/UA/(or even JB for this argument) guy and want to fly E190s or 717s for my last few years. Is my responsibility and contribution to the company really any less if I'm flying 400 people a day domestically over 4 or 5 legs vs 400 people a day overseas on 1 leg (just to be clear there would still be intl overrides for crossing timezones, dealing with intl intricacies, etc.)? I don't know, that's why I posed the question...I'm trying to learn and so far when I've asked people, the only answer I hear is because that's the way it's always been and it isn't changing. Bigger is better and should pay better.

I wish I could have the option to get paid the same (so long as it is a lot) whether I was flying a E190, a A319/737 or A350/787 at the end of my career, where longevity and seat were the deciding factors for pay rate. I'd have the choice of what type of flying I wanted to do and not let pay be a factor. I care about time off and the size of my pay check, not the size of my plane. But I guess the majority thinks the size of the plane should be proportionate to the size of the paycheck, and I'm just trying to figure out why.
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Old 04-09-2016, 02:19 AM
  #7675  
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Just serves as another way of solidifying seniority as the almighty factor in this business. Dig deeper and you'll see the real reason.
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Old 04-09-2016, 02:49 AM
  #7676  
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Originally Posted by BunkerF16 View Post
The 190 is not going to be ties to the Bus. Nor should it.
It's not emotional. It's rooted in solid industry precedent, which I spelled out for you and you conveniently ignored. The payscale being tied was agreed to by the company, before we had ALPA on property, in a process called PCRB.

You're talking out your tailpipe based on your own selfish interest; if we end up with displacement language you may well end up flying our "RJ" as the senior guys hanging out there will bail to the bus if you get your wish. 190 pay is based in solid industry precedent of what other airlines pay 100-ish seat narrowbody jets and that should continue.
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Old 04-09-2016, 05:13 AM
  #7677  
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Originally Posted by aewanabe View Post
It's not emotional. It's rooted in solid industry precedent, which I spelled out for you and you conveniently ignored. The payscale being tied was agreed to by the company, before we had ALPA on property, in a process called PCRB.

You're talking out your tailpipe based on your own selfish interest; if we end up with displacement language you may well end up flying our "RJ" as the senior guys hanging out there will bail to the bus if you get your wish. 190 pay is based in solid industry precedent of what other airlines pay 100-ish seat narrowbody jets and that should continue.
It is emotional. The 2 airframes should not be tied together. The rates should be based on industry pay for similar sized aircraft. JB basically SET the standard for the 190. It's the highest 190/195 in the industry right now and only Delta's 717 pay is higher.

Now that Virgin is going away, only Spirit's 320/321 pay will be LOWER than JB's pay for similar size aircraft.

Bottom line, the majority, if not ALL of the pay increase for JB pilots will be on the 320/321. It's not F-ing the 190 guys....it's just using logic based on where they both sit in comparison with our peers on similar sized aircraft.

The real increases that will be felt by guys flying both aircraft will be in work rules, vacation, etc.......that's where the negotiations need to focus...
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Old 04-09-2016, 06:41 AM
  #7678  
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Originally Posted by BunkerF16 View Post
It is emotional. The 2 airframes should not be tied together. The rates should be based on industry pay for similar sized aircraft. JB basically SET the standard for the 190. It's the highest 190/195 in the industry right now and only Delta's 717 pay is higher.

Now that Virgin is going away, only Spirit's 320/321 pay will be LOWER than JB's pay for similar size aircraft.

Bottom line, the majority, if not ALL of the pay increase for JB pilots will be on the 320/321. It's not F-ing the 190 guys....it's just using logic based on where they both sit in comparison with our peers on similar sized aircraft.

The real increases that will be felt by guys flying both aircraft will be in work rules, vacation, etc.......that's where the negotiations need to focus...

I think you are worried that having them "tied" to each other will hurt the chances of a large raise for the bus(you fly the bus)
The point I am trying to make is don't be so fast in leaving the 190 behind. Is it top pay now (sure) but we shouldn't say well that's good enough. Remember there is a cost if you make the two planes massively different in pay. People will bail left and right from the bus and OSC will have a problem. The other thing is sure get great bus rates and watch an order come out for 100 e190s v2. Go in asking for everything and work from there, don't go in saying I am happy to leave those 190 rates where they are.
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Old 04-09-2016, 06:49 AM
  #7679  
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Originally Posted by pilotpayne View Post
I think you are worried that having them "tied" to each other will hurt the chances of a large raise for the bus(you fly the bus)
The point I am trying to make is don't be so fast in leaving the 190 behind. Is it top pay now (sure) but we shouldn't say well that's good enough. Remember there is a cost if you make the two planes massively different in pay. People will bail left and right from the bus and OSC will have a problem. The other thing is sure get great bus rates and watch an order come out for 100 e190s v2. Go in asking for everything and work from there, don't go in saying I am happy to leave those 190 rates where they are.
And you fly the 190. I get it.

I never said I'd be happy to leave the 190 rates where they are. In fact, early on in this discussion I said I hope both planes get a huge raise.

But being realistic, based on DATA and FACTS, the realistic outcome is that the majority, if not all of the raise will be on the Bus.

Listen, that's not a bad thing. We're not a mainline and regional airline, as much as the Bus guys like to tease the 190 guys. Everyone either can, or will have the chance to fly the Bus if they want to.
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Old 04-09-2016, 06:50 AM
  #7680  
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Originally Posted by pilotpayne View Post
I think you are worried that having them "tied" to each other will hurt the chances of a large raise for the bus(you fly the bus)
The point I am trying to make is don't be so fast in leaving the 190 behind. Is it top pay now (sure) but we shouldn't say well that's good enough. Remember there is a cost if you make the two planes massively different in pay. People will bail left and right from the bus and OSC will have a problem. The other thing is sure get great bus rates and watch an order come out for 100 e190s v2. Go in asking for everything and work from there, don't go in saying I am happy to leave those 190 rates where they are.
^^This^^
Well said.
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