JetBlue Latest and Greatest
12-02-2016, 04:57 AM
#2031
Covfefe
Joined APC: Jun 2015
Posts: 3,001
Originally Posted by BlueJetDork
Our desire to be different screwed us.
Using the data set the NC is using we are making the case that we are different and want to be in the same universe as our peers in every section.
Every section but one section?
The desire to be different rears it ugly head and for this one section we want to be different, again! To start this section we want to use the our peers (UPS is not in the NC peer set) data set of category based rate as the foundation of our status pay.
Maybe if we were on our third contract this nonsensical bargain strategy would work but on our first contract we need to focus our entire energy on being as close to our peers as possible before we attempt to launch ourself again into another universe all by ourself.
We are not using UPS in the data set. By negotiating for status pay we would be attempting to be outlier from our own data. But we are jetblue and that somehow makes sense to some BlueJet pilots because we are different, again.
Using the data set the NC is using we are making the case that we are different and want to be in the same universe as our peers in every section.
Every section but one section?
The desire to be different rears it ugly head and for this one section we want to be different, again! To start this section we want to use the our peers (UPS is not in the NC peer set) data set of category based rate as the foundation of our status pay.
Maybe if we were on our third contract this nonsensical bargain strategy would work but on our first contract we need to focus our entire energy on being as close to our peers as possible before we attempt to launch ourself again into another universe all by ourself.
We are not using UPS in the data set. By negotiating for status pay we would be attempting to be outlier from our own data. But we are jetblue and that somehow makes sense to some BlueJet pilots because we are different, again.
12-02-2016, 07:04 AM
#2033
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Oct 2012
Position: 190 captain and “Pro-pilot”
Posts: 2,918
Originally Posted by BlueJetDork
90% differential is otay with me.
If that is keeping us down then you are correct since that was the metric that brought us up to current base rate metric.
Seat or status base pay is an outlier.
If that is keeping us down then you are correct since that was the metric that brought us up to current base rate metric.
Seat or status base pay is an outlier.
10% right?
12-02-2016, 07:51 AM
#2034
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Dec 2014
Posts: 155
Originally Posted by BeatNavy
That's an erroneous/fallacious argument. Bean counters price city pairs in certain ways. If someone is flying on an e190 from BUF-JFK then a 320 JFK-MCO, there isn't really a good way to break up how much profit existed from one aircraft to another when a ticket was bought from BUF-MCO. The bean counters determine profitability per flight, but that isn't an exact science since two fares aren't purchased. More so at legacies with regional feed, but still applicable to some of our 2 leg connecting flights. Also, I've heard that lately the e190 has been more profitable per flight than the 320, but I don't have access to any of that data, and I'd be surprised if many people on these boards or people I fly with have access to that. And, by that logic (profitability of a fleet is tied to pay), if jetblue wasn't profitable and each flight lost money, which happens sometimes, we don't lose pay (minus profit sharing) accordingly. Profitability of routes, aircraft serving those routes, etc is a marketing and operations function, completely irrelevant to pilot pay. Especially when you throw in maintenance cost variations, landing fee variations, etc. So much of what goes into a flight's cost/revenue is not at all related to pilot labor...and to say that pilot labor rates are tied to revenue brought in or profit is questionable at best. Pilots don't bring in money to JetBlue. Customers buying tickets brings money to JetBlue. We are a cog in the wheel. Whether you fly 150 people once or twice a day, or 100 people 3 or 4 times a day, doesn't bring in more or less money to the company. A New York gate agent who processes 900 people in one day makes the same per hour as a podunk gate agent who processes 150 or 200 people a day...right?
The fact that so many bluejet pilots are willing to sell out 1/4 of the pilot group with those arguments is sad, when 108-110 seat jets at our peer airlines are fetching 30-40% more than our 100 seat jets. I always get a chuckle when I have a someone tell me they don't think the 190 rates should go up bc we are at the top of the industry for 190 pay. I ask who else flies them and I get this dumbfounded look. 20 190s exist in the US outside of JetBlue, and they are getting parked. They were a b scale aircraft at airways that comprised a small fraction of their total fleet and could be bid off quickly. Why compare us to something that doesn't exist and say we are at the top? We can bump both aircrafts' rates, but unfortunately I think the sentiment across the board is not shared, especially since 190s are a minority. As a pilot, I'd rather bid the type of flying I want (perhaps the 190 schedules suit me better) and not feel compelled to chase the bigger plane for bigger pay.
Lastly, does a UPS 757 pilot bring in more or less revenue/profit than a UPS 747 pilot? That's weird, their pay rate is the same. Because it doesn't matter.
The fact that so many bluejet pilots are willing to sell out 1/4 of the pilot group with those arguments is sad, when 108-110 seat jets at our peer airlines are fetching 30-40% more than our 100 seat jets. I always get a chuckle when I have a someone tell me they don't think the 190 rates should go up bc we are at the top of the industry for 190 pay. I ask who else flies them and I get this dumbfounded look. 20 190s exist in the US outside of JetBlue, and they are getting parked. They were a b scale aircraft at airways that comprised a small fraction of their total fleet and could be bid off quickly. Why compare us to something that doesn't exist and say we are at the top? We can bump both aircrafts' rates, but unfortunately I think the sentiment across the board is not shared, especially since 190s are a minority. As a pilot, I'd rather bid the type of flying I want (perhaps the 190 schedules suit me better) and not feel compelled to chase the bigger plane for bigger pay.
Lastly, does a UPS 757 pilot bring in more or less revenue/profit than a UPS 747 pilot? That's weird, their pay rate is the same. Because it doesn't matter.
Most pilots here have the qualifications to pack the stuff and go elsewhere. JB is not paying us for what we fly, they are paying us to be pilots. Not our fault they don't have bigger airplanes or they don't fly the same routes as companies X. Today's market companies have to pay for pilots, not 190 pilots vs 320 pilots. Guess what, if the don't pay us what other companies pay, guys won't come here, guys will leave here. There goes the growth. If the 190 doesn't get an equal percent raise you know it will become the junior airplane. Why would someone want to work here. Fly the 190 for a couple years at JB at current pay rates, or go to Delta/United/Fedex and make way more. My point is, regardless of the airplane JB has, we are pilots and need to be compensated as pilots at a profitable major airline. All of us do.
12-02-2016, 10:23 AM
#2036
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Oct 2012
Position: 190 captain and “Pro-pilot”
Posts: 2,918
Originally Posted by BlueJetDork
Wrong.
265 x .90 = 239 = 90% differential we have right now.
265 x .90 = 239 = 90% differential we have right now.
Are you sure your name is not Burt.
You seem to have the same type of attitude.
Are we talking 90% between us and Delta?
I was talking about between the 2 aircraft types.
I thought you were saying you would be fine with 90% between the 2 vs the 10% we have now. Sorry it was a mistake. But between u and F-16 guy these types of attitudes really don't help. I guess a civil discussion is no longer possible.
Let me ask you since f16 wouldn't answer.
If they come back and the payrates between the two aircraft are more than 30% is that a yes vote from you? How about 40 or 50?
What do you want to see happen?
12-02-2016, 01:36 PM
#2039
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: May 2009
Position: Square root of the variance and average of the variation
Posts: 1,602
Originally Posted by WhiteHammer
Agree.
Today's market companies have to pay for pilots, not 190 pilots vs 320 pilots.
Today's market companies have to pay for pilots, not 190 pilots vs 320 pilots.
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