![US house panel votes in age [67]](/iconimages/major/us-house-panel-votes-age-67-a_ltr.gif)
US house panel votes in age [67]
06-22-2023 | 03:19 PM
#131
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Nov 2020
Posts: 2,903
Likes: 159
From: Enoch Powell Enthusiast
2 extra potential years at the airline and that's worth upending 90+ years of seniority system history?
Yeah, sure. That seems reasonable.
Chesterton's Fence applies. As it always does.
Yeah, sure. That seems reasonable.
Chesterton's Fence applies. As it always does.
06-22-2023 | 03:38 PM
#132
Rerouted On Weekends
Joined: Oct 2015
Posts: 2,937
Likes: 0
From: 717A
So, for age 67 promoters and FTUD(fly till you die) promoters, I offer this recommendation:
We need to de-leverage seniority is done here at the airlines. I don't suggest abandoning seniority, just stopping the carveout for the super senior.
Delta has started de-leveraging seniority by doing a couple things:
1) booking of jumpseats by first come first serve, (I think AA does this to).
2) Green slips based upon senior gets first shot at premium, then a more Jr pilot gets a stab before the senior takes another helping at the trough.
Consider this:
I propose we bid for vacation in a round robin type system. 1 week vacation for the most senior, then down the list. Each round only gets one week of vacation before a jr pilot gets a shot. No more senior guy gets 3 weeks of vacation over the summer before the Jr get nothing.
I propose we bid for golden days off for vacations (the senior will still get everything they want), but those that are less senior will have to pick which vacations they want without getting them all off.
- A Jr pilot still will most likely not get Christmas/Thanksgiving/4th of July, but maybe they get Easter Weekend, or MLK weekend, or President's day weekend, Juneteenth, or Halloween
I also think that Jr guys should be able to bid for 2-3 days off a month based on their seniority before PBS starts building. Make PBS build us schedules around those days. Not everyone gets the same weekend off, but I still think that it's not too much to ask for a Jr lineholder to get one weekend off a month. Or if they choose to bid off their kids birthday, or valentine's day, or anniversary, we deserve that.
This isn't a senior vs junior argument. It's an argument for going back to being real unions. Right now most airlines basically carve out everything for the super senior. This happened during bankruptcy and with the advent of PBS type systems (don't give up your system without PBS SWAPA).
Under old ways of scheduling (Preconstructed lines) senior pilots had to make a choice: more days off, holiday off, more pay, better layovers, etc.
Right now with the way most PBS systems are designed, the senior take their turn at the trough before a Jr guy even gets a bite.
Why should the top 5% in seniority get day turn trips and someone at 10% can't touch one. Is it reasonable to expect everyone will ever be able to get a schedule like this?
Top 10% on the widebody gets all the super effecient trips and a guy at 50% can't even touch that city-pair till they are close to 10%?
Top seniority guy only knows how to fly to 1 or 2 city pairs on the WB. Sounds like a carve out.
Well, since now we will all most likely breath our last up at 40,000 ft, we need to rethink the design of our PBS systems and seniority heavy system.
No one is recommending that we remove seniority, it is necessary. I am merely suggesting there are ways to allow a more consistent QOL throughout your career.
That pilot that was hired at 23 will most likely be here till they are 80, think it's a real union based system that allows them to constantly get everything they want while you get nothing?
Bring on the comments. Flame on...
We need to de-leverage seniority is done here at the airlines. I don't suggest abandoning seniority, just stopping the carveout for the super senior.
Delta has started de-leveraging seniority by doing a couple things:
1) booking of jumpseats by first come first serve, (I think AA does this to).
2) Green slips based upon senior gets first shot at premium, then a more Jr pilot gets a stab before the senior takes another helping at the trough.
Consider this:
I propose we bid for vacation in a round robin type system. 1 week vacation for the most senior, then down the list. Each round only gets one week of vacation before a jr pilot gets a shot. No more senior guy gets 3 weeks of vacation over the summer before the Jr get nothing.
I propose we bid for golden days off for vacations (the senior will still get everything they want), but those that are less senior will have to pick which vacations they want without getting them all off.
- A Jr pilot still will most likely not get Christmas/Thanksgiving/4th of July, but maybe they get Easter Weekend, or MLK weekend, or President's day weekend, Juneteenth, or Halloween
I also think that Jr guys should be able to bid for 2-3 days off a month based on their seniority before PBS starts building. Make PBS build us schedules around those days. Not everyone gets the same weekend off, but I still think that it's not too much to ask for a Jr lineholder to get one weekend off a month. Or if they choose to bid off their kids birthday, or valentine's day, or anniversary, we deserve that.
This isn't a senior vs junior argument. It's an argument for going back to being real unions. Right now most airlines basically carve out everything for the super senior. This happened during bankruptcy and with the advent of PBS type systems (don't give up your system without PBS SWAPA).
Under old ways of scheduling (Preconstructed lines) senior pilots had to make a choice: more days off, holiday off, more pay, better layovers, etc.
Right now with the way most PBS systems are designed, the senior take their turn at the trough before a Jr guy even gets a bite.
Why should the top 5% in seniority get day turn trips and someone at 10% can't touch one. Is it reasonable to expect everyone will ever be able to get a schedule like this?
Top 10% on the widebody gets all the super effecient trips and a guy at 50% can't even touch that city-pair till they are close to 10%?
Top seniority guy only knows how to fly to 1 or 2 city pairs on the WB. Sounds like a carve out.
Well, since now we will all most likely breath our last up at 40,000 ft, we need to rethink the design of our PBS systems and seniority heavy system.
No one is recommending that we remove seniority, it is necessary. I am merely suggesting there are ways to allow a more consistent QOL throughout your career.
That pilot that was hired at 23 will most likely be here till they are 80, think it's a real union based system that allows them to constantly get everything they want while you get nothing?
Bring on the comments. Flame on...
06-22-2023 | 04:09 PM
#133
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Sep 2016
Posts: 1,957
Likes: 0
I mean, that’s exactly what those 2 extra years are going to do if ICAO doesn’t raise the age. So excited to get my domestic flying robbed so junior 66 year olds can get a line.
06-22-2023 | 04:11 PM
#134
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 403
Likes: 0
And the system we're using now (PBS based systems) are only about 15-20 years old.
Pre-bankruptcy/ Pre-9/11, the system was more fair/level across the seniority system. SWAs system is still fair because they still are using the old system. Alaska is going to PBS if they haven't already with their new UPA. The PBS model is a "super-seniority" model that was never intended except to "sell" the system to the senior guys to get the camel's nose into the tent. With the old system, you could bid to get more time off with vacation. Now you can't. The lines were built to be more fair. The senior got to pick their poison then the Jr last. However under the old system, a schedule wasn't perfect. We all had to take a bit of bad with the good. Want all weekends off? Maybe you have to fly to Tulsa OK or Mexico City all month. Choose to work the weekends? Maybe you get more CUN and HNL layovers.
So you don't think it's fair that everyone get a pick of a few days off before PBS gives everyone in the top 15-20% everything?
Who here thinks the age limit will stop at 67? I don't. 90 years ago the age was 60. Also, the life expectancy 90 years ago was in the 60s. Now we're looking at late 70s on average.
The system was never built for a moving goalpost that only benefits the lucky ones that got all of the good from the previous pilots mandatory retirement and then get to camp out on the top for an extra 2 years.
I'm not saying I'm against 67, but with age 67/67+ we do need to stop propping up the super senior.
06-22-2023 | 05:56 PM
#135
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 5,213
Likes: 14
From: guppy CA
Are these posts the transition from stage 2, anger, to stage 3, bargaining? Progress.
Incorrect. 90 years ago, there was no age limit. The age 60 rule was implemented in 1959.
I'm ambivalent about the change, but it's now almost certain to happen. Why? Because even if the Senate version of the FAA Reauthorization Act doesn't include age 67, the House version does. That will be an issue resolved in conference committee. And I don't see it as likely that age 67 will be removed from the final version.
The reason I state that 67 is likely to happen is for two main reasons: 1) there is a shortage of airline pilots, and 2) the Social Security trust fund is headed toward insolvency - having people work until they're older will extend the trust fund's insolvency date.
On the other side, there's the safety issue. The problem with that card being played is that the accident rate did not spike when 65 was fully implemented. Therefore, one can reasonably extrapolate that going to age 67 won't impose a dire safety threat. And any safety issues should be caught on physicals and check rides.
FAA reauthorization occurs every 5 years. I wouldn't be surprised to see the age change to 70 in the next reauthorization bill.
I'm ambivalent about the change, but it's now almost certain to happen. Why? Because even if the Senate version of the FAA Reauthorization Act doesn't include age 67, the House version does. That will be an issue resolved in conference committee. And I don't see it as likely that age 67 will be removed from the final version.
The reason I state that 67 is likely to happen is for two main reasons: 1) there is a shortage of airline pilots, and 2) the Social Security trust fund is headed toward insolvency - having people work until they're older will extend the trust fund's insolvency date.
On the other side, there's the safety issue. The problem with that card being played is that the accident rate did not spike when 65 was fully implemented. Therefore, one can reasonably extrapolate that going to age 67 won't impose a dire safety threat. And any safety issues should be caught on physicals and check rides.
FAA reauthorization occurs every 5 years. I wouldn't be surprised to see the age change to 70 in the next reauthorization bill.
06-22-2023 | 06:57 PM
#136
Line Holder
Joined: Jan 2019
Posts: 1,196
Likes: 28
So, for age 67 promoters and FTUD(fly till you die) promoters, I offer this recommendation:
We need to de-leverage seniority is done here at the airlines. I don't suggest abandoning seniority, just stopping the carveout for the super senior.
Delta has started de-leveraging seniority by doing a couple things:
1) booking of jumpseats by first come first serve, (I think AA does this to).
2) Green slips based upon senior gets first shot at premium, then a more Jr pilot gets a stab before the senior takes another helping at the trough.
Consider this:
I propose we bid for vacation in a round robin type system. 1 week vacation for the most senior, then down the list. Each round only gets one week of vacation before a jr pilot gets a shot. No more senior guy gets 3 weeks of vacation over the summer before the Jr get nothing.
I propose we bid for golden days off for vacations (the senior will still get everything they want), but those that are less senior will have to pick which vacations they want without getting them all off.
- A Jr pilot still will most likely not get Christmas/Thanksgiving/4th of July, but maybe they get Easter Weekend, or MLK weekend, or President's day weekend, Juneteenth, or Halloween
I also think that Jr guys should be able to bid for 2-3 days off a month based on their seniority before PBS starts building. Make PBS build us schedules around those days. Not everyone gets the same weekend off, but I still think that it's not too much to ask for a Jr lineholder to get one weekend off a month. Or if they choose to bid off their kids birthday, or valentine's day, or anniversary, we deserve that.
This isn't a senior vs junior argument. It's an argument for going back to being real unions. Right now most airlines basically carve out everything for the super senior. This happened during bankruptcy and with the advent of PBS type systems (don't give up your system without PBS SWAPA).
Under old ways of scheduling (Preconstructed lines) senior pilots had to make a choice: more days off, holiday off, more pay, better layovers, etc.
Right now with the way most PBS systems are designed, the senior take their turn at the trough before a Jr guy even gets a bite.
Why should the top 5% in seniority get day turn trips and someone at 10% can't touch one. Is it reasonable to expect everyone will ever be able to get a schedule like this?
Top 10% on the widebody gets all the super effecient trips and a guy at 50% can't even touch that city-pair till they are close to 10%?
Top seniority guy only knows how to fly to 1 or 2 city pairs on the WB. Sounds like a carve out.
Well, since now we will all most likely breath our last up at 40,000 ft, we need to rethink the design of our PBS systems and seniority heavy system.
No one is recommending that we remove seniority, it is necessary. I am merely suggesting there are ways to allow a more consistent QOL throughout your career.
That pilot that was hired at 23 will most likely be here till they are 80, think it's a real union based system that allows them to constantly get everything they want while you get nothing?
Bring on the comments. Flame on...
We need to de-leverage seniority is done here at the airlines. I don't suggest abandoning seniority, just stopping the carveout for the super senior.
Delta has started de-leveraging seniority by doing a couple things:
1) booking of jumpseats by first come first serve, (I think AA does this to).
2) Green slips based upon senior gets first shot at premium, then a more Jr pilot gets a stab before the senior takes another helping at the trough.
Consider this:
I propose we bid for vacation in a round robin type system. 1 week vacation for the most senior, then down the list. Each round only gets one week of vacation before a jr pilot gets a shot. No more senior guy gets 3 weeks of vacation over the summer before the Jr get nothing.
I propose we bid for golden days off for vacations (the senior will still get everything they want), but those that are less senior will have to pick which vacations they want without getting them all off.
- A Jr pilot still will most likely not get Christmas/Thanksgiving/4th of July, but maybe they get Easter Weekend, or MLK weekend, or President's day weekend, Juneteenth, or Halloween
I also think that Jr guys should be able to bid for 2-3 days off a month based on their seniority before PBS starts building. Make PBS build us schedules around those days. Not everyone gets the same weekend off, but I still think that it's not too much to ask for a Jr lineholder to get one weekend off a month. Or if they choose to bid off their kids birthday, or valentine's day, or anniversary, we deserve that.
This isn't a senior vs junior argument. It's an argument for going back to being real unions. Right now most airlines basically carve out everything for the super senior. This happened during bankruptcy and with the advent of PBS type systems (don't give up your system without PBS SWAPA).
Under old ways of scheduling (Preconstructed lines) senior pilots had to make a choice: more days off, holiday off, more pay, better layovers, etc.
Right now with the way most PBS systems are designed, the senior take their turn at the trough before a Jr guy even gets a bite.
Why should the top 5% in seniority get day turn trips and someone at 10% can't touch one. Is it reasonable to expect everyone will ever be able to get a schedule like this?
Top 10% on the widebody gets all the super effecient trips and a guy at 50% can't even touch that city-pair till they are close to 10%?
Top seniority guy only knows how to fly to 1 or 2 city pairs on the WB. Sounds like a carve out.
Well, since now we will all most likely breath our last up at 40,000 ft, we need to rethink the design of our PBS systems and seniority heavy system.
No one is recommending that we remove seniority, it is necessary. I am merely suggesting there are ways to allow a more consistent QOL throughout your career.
That pilot that was hired at 23 will most likely be here till they are 80, think it's a real union based system that allows them to constantly get everything they want while you get nothing?
Bring on the comments. Flame on...
06-22-2023 | 07:00 PM
#137
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Aug 2020
Posts: 2,657
Likes: 116
The never ending moving of the goal post won’t help attract new pilots. The new generation doesn’t want to work until they die, they want to put in their time and retire before they’re too old to enjoy themselves. Moving the goal post to slow current attrition also slows seniority progression and makes this job even less appealing. Also, if they do keep moving it then LTD premiums are going to get expensive too. More people will either need it for serious medical issues, or just use it when they’ve had enough and quit trying to maintain a medical. For those who don’t need a medical outside of this job, I wouldn’t think disqualifying would be that hard to do.
06-22-2023 | 07:33 PM
#138
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 5,213
Likes: 14
From: guppy CA
Living your life out of a suitcase is not that appealing to most young people.
06-22-2023 | 07:36 PM
#139
Line Holder
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 1,044
Likes: 2
I don't think reason works very well in emotional arguments.
"If you have to eat the young, can you do so a little slower? It may actually lead to greater numbers of young for you to eat."
I think anyone with enough self-awareness to recognize the validity of your conclusion would have already rejected the premise of raising the retirement age.
"If you have to eat the young, can you do so a little slower? It may actually lead to greater numbers of young for you to eat."
I think anyone with enough self-awareness to recognize the validity of your conclusion would have already rejected the premise of raising the retirement age.
06-22-2023 | 07:47 PM
#140
Line Holder
Joined: Apr 2022
Posts: 1,735
Likes: 110
Unless some seniors get to hold on to seniority longer without paying their time share in juniority. Therefore it’s unfair. Fair is to keep the mandatory age retirement forever. Basic, basic math.
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