FliFast

All I asked was , what about the furloughees when it comes time for negotiations...and if you interpreted otherwise, drop it. I want to know where the furloughess fall in the negotiations.

If you think both NAAtive pilots got screwed after AMR acquired TWA, drop it. I want to know what is slated for the furloughed pilots in terms of negotiations.

Can I make it any clearer ?

FF

aa73

Yes. Stop referring to ex TWA when you talk about furloughees. You are the one creating a wedge here. *WE ARE ALL AA PILOTS* regardless of our backgrounds.

Oh, and also... stick to the topic.

Clear enough?

OK. That said, furloughed pilots have always been made whole with our past contracts. You can probably expect the same this time around.

7576FO

I want to know where the furloughess fall in the negotiations.

APA has made public it's comprehensive contract proposals. They don't edit or make daily announcements like "Oh, we've decided to change our minds on this or that"
The current APA position proposal is to make all furloughees whole on the next/upcoming contract.
Myself and others that post here have stated that we care and will vote on the next contract with concern for the furloughees.

Would I like more info and communication from my union leaders? Yes! I'm sure ALPA members feel the same way.
Union contracts always take a long time. Patience is required. You are not the only one frustrated.
At AA there are many other things going on also. It is my thought, that the AA company negotiators are stalling, and prepping to make a really poor offer. It's always a poker game.
Current thought is when the profits 2nd Q 09 start rolling in, it will be hard for the negotiating team to say they cannot afford to pay the pilot group.

7576FO

From APA Dec.5 2008
NEGOTIATING UPDATE: After a nearly seven-week break, formal negotiating sessions with AMR resumed this week. Bargaining failed to occur at the opening session Monday because management was not prepared to negotiate, would not adhere to the agenda and was not held accountable by the National Mediation Board. According to the mediator-directed agenda, AMR’s negotiating team was slated to offer specific counters in the area of scheduling. To our disappointment, management had no scheduling proposals or responses to discuss. When directly queried, management admitted they were not prepared to conduct bargaining on any area of the contract. Unfortunately, because management chose to give a presentation designed to mislead the senior mediator about the status of negotiations instead of preparing for bargaining, another day of negotiating was lost.



Due to management’s continued refusal to discuss larger, more important issues such as compensation, career stagnation and furlough mitigation, the mediator directed both parties to bargain over smaller issues, such as hotels, crew meals, jumpseat provisions and uniforms. Unfortunately, AMR insisted on “bundling” many of the smaller issues together into “all or nothing” packages. These bundles contained little movement by management and tied them to concessions by APA on issues of significance to the membership. Even when agreements were approached on a couple of specific items within a bundle, they evaporated when management withdrew them because of their “all or nothing” approach.



During the week, management also continued to press for discussions on the B-Plan and preferential bidding system (PBS). Both sides are prohibited by contract and arbitration award from any discussions that would result in a diminishment of the B-Plan. Additionally, the APA Board of Directors has a standing resolution prohibiting negotiations on PBS. In both cases, APA negotiators steadfastly maintained that they would not engage in any regressive bargaining discussions.



APA continues to press for more frequent bargaining sessions and for management to abandon their delay tactic of only meeting when the mediator is available. We are scheduled to negotiate in Washington, D.C. during the third week of December. We have even offered to meet between Christmas and New Year's. APA negotiators have repeatedly stated that they will meet to negotiate anytime, anywhere.

X Rated

I'm sure you'll find enough Eagle pilots who would like you to reconsider that statement. As I understand it, the four Eagle carriers' pilots wanted to become one for representational purposes to prevent the rampant whipsawing that AMR management had been utilizing. The company didn't want a single carrier ruling but gave in if they'd "just agree to this little 16 year contract."

Then there wouldn't be Supplement CC. Sorry, had to poke there. Until you provide TWA pilots access to at least the domiciles they worked at prior to the merger it's hard to keep from reverting to an "us vs. them" mentality.

I believe the '93-'98 furloughees at AA were made whole via the APA transition agreement during the TWA purchase--NOT due to a section 6 CBA negotiation.

Again, being former TWA I don't hold my breath.

X

7576FO

Please research history before you write things that happened way before you were here. The 93 furloughees were planned to be made whole before the Reno Air Sick-out. It was achieved as part of the Reno Air deal, Feb 1999.
Long before TWA.
The 16 year Eagle contract happened a Decade after the integration of the regional carriers.
Without supp CC there would be zero TWA captains. Well I guess they could have worked some thing out.
I have said many times it sucks that they closed TWA bases and threw everybody into STL.
But Supp CC allows CA's to continue being CA's. Yes, it messes with your own relative seniority when everyone is in one base.
Please do not forget 1998 Reno Air pilots are all stapled to the bottom of the AA seniority list. All CA's are removed from their seats by 1999. All Reno Air bases were closed by Spring 2000. No Reno Air ex-CA will be a CA at AA until 2012 or much later.
All of the Reno Air pilots are junior to nearly all of the ex TWA CA's.

I'm sure and I've heard great things about TWA. I went on a TWAGetaway vacation and loved the great deal it offered. Yes, there are some great things from TWA we could integrate into AA.

I still contend that your, and others beef is with Carl Icahn, ALPA, then AA and APA. Please direct your frustration in that order.

Happy Holidays, i'm going on a 4 day trip.

willflyforcash

Oooooo.. this is a fun thread!

I would like to further complicate it by throwing this in...

How bout the Eagle guys with AA seniority numbers senior to guys there now?!?! How bout Eagle guys below those with AA numbers, who have been waiting to upgrade (and should have UGed) for years?!? How about the APA's interpretation of "1 out of every 2 new hires" meaning 33% of new hires from Eagle?

I fully support any pilot group fighting for a pay raise (or restoration in this case), however, no sympathy about managements hardball tactics. Negotiation Karma.

X Rated

Okay, thank you for the corrections, but you acknowledge some things for me:

There...you confirmed my thought...I named the wrong integration, sorry. But did the '93 furloughees get made whole as a result of a Section 6 negotiation? No. They were made whole as part of an acquisition of another carrier.

They entered into that contract in 1996. The integration seems to have stemmed from a contract signed in 1997.

And guess what: if DOH had been given to both Reno and TWA the TWA CA's would still be senior.

+1 for spelling Icahn correctly. Congratulations on your complete education of TWA. Perhaps you could integrate the vacation packages into AA--it'd be one of the few things TWA that you did integrate.

The thumbscrews are being put to ALPA. We'll see who they care to implicate later.

HHAh,

X

Theonemarine

Personally, the graph on page 32 was my favorite. (Sarcasm)

Goodluck AA. Looks like it will be an interesting fight.

Wheels up

Those aren't RJs. They're narrow body airliners. The manufacturers and airline execs will next be trying to paint "RJ" on the side of 777s. It's a lame attempt to manage expectations.


It was my understanding that part of the arbitration was only to decide the company's ludicrous contention that furloughed pilots count as "employed" pilots as specified in the scope language. The ultimate disposition of AE and the commuter clause is something to be "discussed" between AA and the APA. The company could keep stalling this by contending on the meaning of "is" for a long time. Hopefully that will change when the new administration comes in and cleans up the apparent bias in the FMB.

I'd like the company to have back the billion dollars that is squandered on the TWA asset acquisition, but that ain't gonna happen either. I think we're going to have to live with Supp CC, warts and all. I believe that exTWA can bid where ever they like, but they won't enjoy super-seniority like at the protected St. Louis base.