aa73

According to the arbitrator that was recruited to help craft this integration, neutral 3rd party arbitration would have resulted in pretty much the same exact deal as what we have now. The difference is, nobody could have blamed each other, which would have made it more "fair" since the decision process would have been neutral. But you would have had the same outcome.

aa73

P.s. Here's a post from another board that highlights the fact that binding neutral arbitration sometimes causes lopsided integrations (this is also directed towards X Rated's post that AWA/USAir was "fair"):


"You just can't imagine what's it like to be on furlough just in front of the holidays. Out of seniority furlough. New hires working out East. Guys who didn't have a job at the time of the merger (AAA furloughees) are still working, and yet AWA pilots who were employed at the time of the merger are on the street. USAPA doesn't even have a statement out about the deal. AWA pilots did everything that was asked of us. Binding Arbitration. The time for negotiation was 3 years ago. The East stuck to DOH. You don't even see that in the DL/NWA agreement. So here we are down the road with a shotgun union who does not care about the West. East pilots are allowing this to happen. They are profiting on the West's pilots losses. The Wallflower excuse over there "I don't really pay attention to union matters" is so over. You have the Majority Pilots taking advantage of the Minority Pilots every day. Some AWA guys will never recover. West never wanted more than what we agreed to. East wants alot more. The East pilots are going to kill LCC and take 33,000 jobs with them. It's indeed very sad. We are trying to avert the train wreck in the courts. East pilots and USAPA members will wake up when they are handed a monetary penalty. We have integrity, it matters, and we'll wait for our day in court. BTW, it is to everyone's benefit to ignore the IDIOT in the room who just plys the board for entertainment."

NoWake200

You are correct, it is a waste of time and energy. I need to be more like my dogs...... living in the now. Every single more when we wake up it is like Christmas morning to them. I wish I could learn to wake up like them.

LMAO

X Rated

So explain this to me: You hire a neutral 3rd party arbiter, have him help you craft what would become Supp CC, and insist that's exactly what TWA would have received had it actually gone to an arbiter.

So why the need to have the TWA pilots wave Scope/Successorship to give up the right to arbitrate?

"Enlighten me..."

aa73

No clue. Like I said, I was never asked for my input on this deal.... However, many TWA pilots have told me they would have preferred the same exact integration to come from an arbitrator than from AA/APA, despite having the same outcome, since the process of reaching an agreement was made by a neutral rather by the other union. Understandable.

aa73

I wake up in the dog house several days a week... not quite the same as your dogs, but I've managed to really spruce it up in my 11 years of marriage. Big screen TV, fridge, recliner, the works.

Wheels up

Ok. Why did the TWA pilots agree to wave their Scope/Successorship contractural rights? Why didn't they have the gonads to tell AA to pound sand and they would only accept an arbitration.

Oh, that's right, they had ZERO leverage, and it was either take the deal or hit the street. The APA knew the TWA acquisition would end badly (like so many before it did) and would result in TWA pilots substantially diluting the APA seniority list. In retrospect, the pilots should have been stapled like the flight attendants were.

In retrospect, the senior TWA guys got a pretty sweet deal especially considering that the normal outcome of AA acquisitions that AA pilots predicted has come true yet again.

On the day of the announcement, the champagne corks were popping and the confetti flying in the St Louis crew rooms, while in AA crew rooms "Sh*t, not again" was being muttered with a sense of gloom.

The whining is getting tiresome.

X Rated

No, the leverage would have been in opposing the 1113 motion.

Upon the insistence of ALPA National, the MEC waved the clauses with ALPA National claiming that the entire CBA would be stripped in the BK court. We're after ALPA on that.

You could have "AirCal'd" us. You could have "Ozark'd" us. It didn't turn out that way.

More info:

Finally,
because waiver of the contractual
Allegheny-Mohawk provisions did not
constitute a clear and unmistakable waiver
of statutory bargaining rights under the
RLA, compare Gullickson v. Southwest
Airlines Pilots’ Ass’n, 87 F.3d 1176 (10th
Cir. 1996), Supplement CC was not the
foregone conclusion of the Class’ waiver.
--UNITED STATES COURT OF
APPEALS FOR THE THIRD CIRCUIT


X

Wheels up

Same affect. TWA ALPA, if they felt they had leverage, should have opposed the waiver and let the deal fall through. They didn't because they knew that AA was the last chance and only hope. How many TWA aircraft are left in the fleet now? What is the importance of St Louis as a hub? Ans: Not many and not much.

The TWA furloughees might want to spend some more time trying to convince their TWA buddies in SLT to not sell them out for a few bucks rate increase. The feeling I get is that there are quite a few TWA captains that wouldn't mind selling-out furloughees for a moderate payraise in return for emasculating scope.

Mason32

No less than two ivy league schools have MBA programs with textbooks that use AMR management as a model... by keeping workgroups seperated / isolated , and in some cases pitting one group against another, causing strife and conflict with eachother; they are able to selectively beat down each group... and effectively manage as they see fit.

it's in black and white, and being as an example to be taught to current students.


Until ALL of the labor groups at AMR stop fighting with eachother, management will continue to win.