7576FO

It just goes on and on and on.
We get it. You hate APA, no wait, you're suing ALPA, no wait, you're suing APA, no wait you're suing AA.
Two grievances out of several hundred that APA works on, on behalf of the former TWA pilots. But you list two here. Proof that APA is doing NOTHING in the conspiracy against the former ex TWA pilots.
We get it. You are upset.
I am sorry that are still a Captain. I wish there was more we could do for you.
I am sorry APA cannot make everything perfect for you.
But apparently ALPA cannot satify you either. So you are suing them.
Your airline was bought. You got to keep your Captain seat. So many were furloughed AA and ex-TWA.
Based on nothing but your opinion, you've decided to post on the internet that APA will trade making the furloughees whole for some other whim that APA has, just to smite the former TWA pilots.

Read some of the ideas you are posting.

For those that do not know SEP at AA is after the bids are awarded monthly, you may attempt to trade, drop or pickup (frowned upon) one trip.
Then you have to wait for TTOT (trip trade with open time to begin).

This is a genuine grievence if it is not being administered properly, I will send a soundoff today on this to see if I can get a resposes from someone at APA.

I originally came to this website because a friend told me there was a guy (FLiFast) making all kinds of derogatory statements against APA and AA.

Some of TWA was stapled. If you were a CA at TWA you currently are, always have been to this day, retired, or will be again. There is something about the 717 CA's some of which were very very junior not being able to be a CA.

TWA was a great great airline. And from what I read had great work rules. There are many things wrong with the way we do things here at AA. Everything is the way they did it in the 1950's and the 1960's. Our payroll for example.

Once again, if you were a CA at TWA, you are a CA at AA.
General pilot lingo, "If a merger comes down you want to be in the left seat"

I am sorry you did not get the Aircal deal.

But my sorry's do not make it for you. So you are entitled to your days in court. I am not offended by that. It is your right.
When it's over please post here.

In the meantime, I am writing an e-mail to APA asking about the grievences in which you write.

Happy Holidays.

X Rated

There are many inaccuracies in your posting, but to clarify, I was not a Captain at TWA. It was at Eagle...to which I have left due to the spiralling seniority of the flowbacks.

My seniority at TWA would have upgraded in late '03 or '04.

Happy Holidays.

X

aa73

There is no provision in Supp CC that recalls returning TWA pilots straight to CA. The only case was one that took a furlough stand-in stead. If they can't hold CA on recall, they recall to F/O. Same as any native. If APA supported this grievance, how could they explain it to a returning native that also wanted to be recalled to CA? Makes no sense. The second grievance is clearly explained in CC: Supp CC provides super seniority for monthly bidding schedules, displacement rights, and upgrade rights. Everything else is done by pure system seniority. Nowhere in the contract does it state that TWA pilots bid SEP and vacation ahead of native pilots. So that's why that grievance was rejected.



Understood, I wasn't saying the natives were being forced out. I was saying they were transferring out voluntarily because there is no future for them in STL. STL should be a pure TWA base.



Of course Supp CC was tested in court! The whole reason this integration was deemed fair by the courts was because of Supp CC. Had it been a pure staple, I don't think it would have passed. There needed to be credit given for years of service to TWA pilots. Apparently, the courts thought Supp CC was enough fair credit. As to why TWA pilots didn't endorse CC, ask yourself why? They wanted far more, and thought they could get far more by suing. There existed an earlier integration suggestion, before CC, that ratioed in a lot m ore TWA pilots than 1:8. They threw that out too.

If you think US pilots deemed their integration fair, I'd like whatever your smoking. Uhh, why was USAPA formed again? X, EVERY integration is crafted by an arbitrator these days in a way that will survive in court, period. Delta/NWA looks fair to most people, but not to everyone. The true test will be if it survives a lawsuit, or a union decertification effort. I credit the APA for crafting an integration that survived the inevitable lawsuit. Yes, they used the help of an arbitrator, but even so, they pulled off a difficult task.

I absolutely agree that the fairest way is binding arbitration. That way, nobody can point fingers at each other in the end. I also agree that we should have done it this way with our deal.

No, X, just look at your paycheck every month when you get recalled. It will clearly say AA. So will your ID, your monthly schedule, and your crew list pairing. The only difference is the one you like to create, in referring to yourself as ex TWA. Nothing wrong with that, except that you yourself are creating that wedge. Everyone else sees you as an AA pilot.

The last two furloughs before this one resulted in LOS credit - the '81 furlough and the '93 furlough. This one will most likely also get it.

Regards,
73

7576FO

I believe someone asked you before, "What part of REALITY is that based upon?"

You must admit, the way you love to have the last word, made me think you're a Captain! Laugh out Loud

Whether you wish to believe it or not, there are a handful of guys posting here aa73 a great guy, me not such a great guy, but many do care I care about making furloughees whole in pay for longevity of service. They have been put through the wringer. Yourself included. I do care. I am just a little voice, and I know it sounds weak to you, but I do and will write e-mail and voicemails to help make "a voice" for the furloughees.

But it is ok to voice your frustrations, but there are natives that care about all pilots not just themselves.

7576FO

but there are natives that care about all pilots not just themselves.


i've got to beat you to this,

"What part of reality is that based?"

LOL

see I can laugh at myself.
7576

aa73

Heya 7576, thanks. What makes us great guys is that we can laugh at ourselves, especially on C&R (a.k.a. Criticize and Ridicule.) Happy holidays, I'll be working Xmas and New year's as usual. And of course, happy holidays to my fellow pilots on this forum.

73

7576FO

additionally for X Rated,
I am not an expert on TWA, but I do not think that they had a flow thru flow back arrangement with Trans-States. If I am wrong, then let me know.

I pose this, if TWA had made it through another bankruptcy, and then 911 happened, while everyone was furloughing, do you still think you'd be a CA at TWA in 2003-2004? More likely, you'd have been furloughed had TWA stayed in business.
TWA was a great historic airline. I myself am very loyal to my previous airline. When someone says something bad about them, I defend them.

I'm gonna say it right here, right now, "You owe ALPA and APA a thank you for being able to flow back to Eagle.
That is or was not an option for TWA pilots while TWA was in business.
It's unfortunate what is going on right now with the Flow thru Flow back program.
The majority of your posts deal with your disdain with the two unions.

B757200ER

[QUOTE=7576FO;518717]I am not an expert on TWA, but I do not think that they had a flow thru flow back arrangement with Trans-States. If I am wrong, then let me know.

I pose this, if TWA had made it through another bankruptcy, and then 911 happened, while everyone was furloughing, do you still think you'd be a CA at TWA in 2003-2004? More likely, you'd have been furloughed had TWA stayed in business.

I'm gonna say it right here, right now, "You owe ALPA and APA a thank you for being able to flow back to Eagle.
That is or was not an option for TWA pilots while TWA was in business./QUOTE]

There was no flow-thru between TWA and TSA. There was a preferential hiring program, though.

If TWA had survived, many of us had 5-10-15 yrs seniority, and would not have been furloughed. All TWA F/Os were axed after TWA/AA cram-down, plus 200 CAs.

We owe ALPA and APA? That's like saying we owe Al-Qaeda for enhanced security procedures. ALPA/APA cooperation is what ensured the majority of TWA pilots got stapled and furloughed/fired, my friend. Nuetral, binding 3rd-party arbitration would have been more fair and acceptable, but both APA and AA management rejected that---it would have kept more TWA pilots on the property.

BTW---I was not eligible for flow-back, nor would I have done it.

NoWake200

I agree with you B757200ER! ( I was eligible for flow-back, but I elected not to)

If TWA had survived, myself and several others going to 1988 hires would have kept their jobs. Sure we would have gone backwards but never the less..... kept our jobs. And if TWA went down, then it would have and we all could have kept our heads held high!

Back in the day I had a very heated exchange of words down in MCI operations with a nAAtive captain.

He said, "if you do not like it leave!"

I said, "and go where?! No one is hiring!"

Then in all his wisdom he said, "exactly!"

It was then when I replied, "I would have much rather gone down with the ship and kept my dignity than endure the AAss raping you guys gave us!"

The room went silent and the look on his face was priceless. He had no response! Because he knew I was right.

For some reason American Pilots found themselves on third base and thought they all had hit a triple. Maybe they should be thanking the management of AMR for putting them on third base rather than hating them so much. Hell, AMR management is doing their jobs..... providing a pay check in these difficult times, providing health care to all their workers, lets not for get the only airline to have the pilot's pension all in tack, and lastly the only U.S. Major Airline to have never filed. Things that make you go.......

Since they are advising us to thank ALPA and APA during this season of "giving thanks", maybe the APA pilot group should give thanks to the managerial leadership of AA as well for all they have done.

Happy Holidays

aa73

NoWake, he most likely did not answer you because he knew it was pointless to argue. Also, because he probably knew he started a controversial topic and regretted it. While I would have never approached you with a topic like that - I would have been the one welcoming you to AA - it is the same exact type banter that is going on right now at USAir/AWA, for example. Trying to change people's opinions after a deal like this is impossible. Might as well all try and get along.

It is totally pointless to sit here and speculate where TWA or AA would have ended up after 9/11 without the deal. Why, because no one will ever know. So it is a waste of time and energy.

BTW, you kept your dignity. You know why? Because you really had no choice in the matter. Neither did I.

Happy holidays to you too, bro.
73