Southwest may make a bid for Frontier
08-01-2009, 12:19 PM
#202
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: May 2006
Posts: 2,889
"Frontier would continue to operate independently and separately for a period of time with its Airbus aircraft and personnel. Over time, Frontier Employees would be hired into Southwest as needed to support our fleet growth and expanded operations."
Who decides "need?"
Who decides "need?"
08-01-2009, 12:59 PM
#203
Line Holder
Joined APC: Oct 2008
Position: A nice comfy Boeing seat.
Posts: 75
I've read this thread with considerable interest. It's always amazing how situations like this get everyone all riled up. I know, I've been there; I am currently unemployed and am swimming in the SWA pool. So I guess I have somewhat of a vested interest in all this.
A few things to add into the thought process:
Gary will make an offer to the FNT pilot group but it won't be the great deal they'd like to get. Remember SWAPA just voted down a TA and I don't think Gary wants to alienate the "NO" voters any further with a FAPA agreement. Thus SWAPA will have a great deal to say here.
Bedford may be on the FNT board BUT this is a BK auction and the judge will make the final decision based on which deal is best for creditors NOT BB and the Board nor the employees.
Allegheny-Mohawk has been around since 1972 (or there abouts) but was only recently strengthened as a tag along on an FAA reauthorization bill. Smart lawyers can and will find a way around it if needed. In fact it seems that is already in process as Gary wants union agreements as part of the deal.
What I say doesn't mean sh1te, nor what anyone else on APC or FI says either for that matter. SWA is a shrewd Company and will craft a deal that is in the best interest of the Company -- and thus (indirectly) its own SWA people too. In a perfect world the SWAPA pilots get back into a growth mode (upgrades, etc), the FNT pilots all get on at SWA, and the poolies all get a class in the next 6 months. Unfortunately we all know there isn't a perfect world out there in the aviation business
A few things to add into the thought process:
Gary will make an offer to the FNT pilot group but it won't be the great deal they'd like to get. Remember SWAPA just voted down a TA and I don't think Gary wants to alienate the "NO" voters any further with a FAPA agreement. Thus SWAPA will have a great deal to say here.
Bedford may be on the FNT board BUT this is a BK auction and the judge will make the final decision based on which deal is best for creditors NOT BB and the Board nor the employees.
Allegheny-Mohawk has been around since 1972 (or there abouts) but was only recently strengthened as a tag along on an FAA reauthorization bill. Smart lawyers can and will find a way around it if needed. In fact it seems that is already in process as Gary wants union agreements as part of the deal.
What I say doesn't mean sh1te, nor what anyone else on APC or FI says either for that matter. SWA is a shrewd Company and will craft a deal that is in the best interest of the Company -- and thus (indirectly) its own SWA people too. In a perfect world the SWAPA pilots get back into a growth mode (upgrades, etc), the FNT pilots all get on at SWA, and the poolies all get a class in the next 6 months. Unfortunately we all know there isn't a perfect world out there in the aviation business
08-01-2009, 01:15 PM
#204
Line Holder
Joined APC: Jul 2009
Posts: 43
Originally Posted by tpmagee
Allegheny-Mohawk has been around since 1972 (or there abouts) but was only recently strengthened as a tag along on an FAA reauthorization bill. Smart lawyers can and will find a way around it if needed.
SEC. 117. LABOR INTEGRATION.
(a) LABOR INTEGRATION- With respect to any covered transaction involving two or
more covered air carriers that results in the combination of crafts or classes that
are subject to the Railway Labor Act (45 U.S.C. 151 et seq.), sections 3 and 13
of the labor protective provisions imposed by the Civil Aeronautics Board in the
Allegheny-Mohawk merger (as published at 59 C.A.B. 45) shall apply to the
integration of covered employees of the covered air carriers; except that—
(1) if the same collective bargaining agent represents the combining crafts or
classes at each of the covered air carriers, that collective bargaining agent's
internal policies regarding integration, if any, will not be affected by and will
supersede the requirements of this section; and
(2) the requirements of any collective bargaining agreement that may be
applicable to the terms of integration involving covered employees of a
covered air carrier shall not be affected by the requirements of this section as
to the employees covered by that agreement, so long as those provisions
allow for the protections afforded by sections 3 and 13 of the Allegheny-
Mohawk provisions.
(b) DEFINITIONS- In this section, the following definitions apply:
(1) AIR CARRIER- The term `air carrier' means an air carrier that holds a
certificate issued under chapter 411 of title 49, United States Code.
(2) COVERED AIR CARRIER- The term `covered air carrier' means an air carrier
that is involved in a covered transaction.
(3) COVERED EMPLOYEE- The term `covered employee' means an employee
who--
(A) is not a temporary employee; and
(B) is a member of a craft or class that is subject to the Railway Labor Act
(45 U.S.C. 151 et seq.).
(4) COVERED TRANSACTION- The term `covered transaction' means--
(A) a transaction for the combination of multiple air carriers into a single air
carrier; and which
(B) involves the transfer of ownership or control of--
(i) 50 percent or more of the equity securities (as defined in section 101
of title 11, United States Code) of an air carrier; or
(ii) 50 percent or more (by value) of the assets of the air carrier.
(c) APPLICATION- This section shall not apply to any covered transaction involving
a covered air carrier that took place before the date of enactment of this Act.
(d) EFFECTIVENESS OF PROVISION- This section shall become effective on the date
of enactment of this Act and shall continue in effect in fiscal years after fiscal
year 2008.
08-01-2009, 01:39 PM
#205
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Dec 2005
Posts: 233
Originally Posted by Lifer
And that Union will Do Nothing to keep F9 People in their jobs!
SWA only has their best interests in mind--and there is no way in hell that SWA F/O's are going to allow any F9 er's on the List in Front of Them.
So much for " Fair and Equitable "
Maybe I'm wrong---Maybe the SWAPA will step up and allow " Fair and Equitable" Integration of the F9 er's into their Senority List.
Oh, That's Right, I forgot---SWA and their SWAPA Have Never Let, or Integrated, Anyone onto their List.
Well here is your chance--if SWA bid is successful, let's see if SWAPA will allow the F9 er's into the SWA club.
I hope so for F9'S Sake.
BTW:
" In your hurry to slap me down with the above example of your intellect "
I wasn't making an effort to slap you down--and what I wrote wasn't even a half hearted attempt at the demonstration of Superior Intellect--it was a full dose of Sarcasm
.
But you were so busy being offended, that any point would have flown directly over your head anyway
.
SWA only has their best interests in mind--and there is no way in hell that SWA F/O's are going to allow any F9 er's on the List in Front of Them.
So much for " Fair and Equitable "
Maybe I'm wrong---Maybe the SWAPA will step up and allow " Fair and Equitable" Integration of the F9 er's into their Senority List.
Oh, That's Right, I forgot---SWA and their SWAPA Have Never Let, or Integrated, Anyone onto their List.
Well here is your chance--if SWA bid is successful, let's see if SWAPA will allow the F9 er's into the SWA club.
I hope so for F9'S Sake.
BTW:
" In your hurry to slap me down with the above example of your intellect "
I wasn't making an effort to slap you down--and what I wrote wasn't even a half hearted attempt at the demonstration of Superior Intellect--it was a full dose of Sarcasm
.But you were so busy being offended, that any point would have flown directly over your head anyway
.Sure about that?
Last edited by quimby; 08-01-2009 at 02:07 PM.
08-01-2009, 06:15 PM
#206
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Oct 2006
Position: 737
Posts: 590
Originally Posted by flyguy23
I have, maybe you should. Southwest is NOT bringing the two airlines together. They have stated their intent to keep them completely seperate and to offer Frontier employees a position at southwest when their jobs go away AND there are openings at southwest.
08-01-2009, 06:58 PM
#208
New Hire
Joined APC: Jul 2009
Posts: 6
I see the speculation continues.
Had a line check yesterday by a chief pilot and got a few more facts for those interested. Those of you who prefer speculation and flaming, disregard this post.
1. SWA/SWAPA is already going forward with the assumption that A-M/ McC-Bond is going to be a player in the integration of the F9 pilots. Yes, I said integration. At present, there are no plans as far as SWA is concerned to put any pilots on the street. As previously stated, the deal is contingent upon labor coming to terms regarding the integration of the 2 employee groups.
The term being most used in terms of seniority integration is "career expectations". Considering the fact that F9 is in bankruptcy and that a maxed out captain at F9 makes the same as a 3-yr Fo at SWA, I think that will have a big part in determining seniority integration, not DOH or any kind of ratio. SWAPA and FAPA already have a meeting scheduled to start preliminary discussions this week.
2. Except for CAK and DFW which are unlikely and ANC which is still up in the air, SWA plans to continue all routes that F9 are currently flying including near-international.
3. Obviously, this is a busines decision. SWA has always looked upon good labor relations as being good for business. I don't think that SWA will intentionally let any F9 employees go unless it is absolutely necessary, because it is bad for moral and thereby bad for business.
4. A little factoid for "Lifer". SWA is the airline in the U.S with the greatest percentage of it's employees unionized. By a large margin...
Had a line check yesterday by a chief pilot and got a few more facts for those interested. Those of you who prefer speculation and flaming, disregard this post.
1. SWA/SWAPA is already going forward with the assumption that A-M/ McC-Bond is going to be a player in the integration of the F9 pilots. Yes, I said integration. At present, there are no plans as far as SWA is concerned to put any pilots on the street. As previously stated, the deal is contingent upon labor coming to terms regarding the integration of the 2 employee groups.
The term being most used in terms of seniority integration is "career expectations". Considering the fact that F9 is in bankruptcy and that a maxed out captain at F9 makes the same as a 3-yr Fo at SWA, I think that will have a big part in determining seniority integration, not DOH or any kind of ratio. SWAPA and FAPA already have a meeting scheduled to start preliminary discussions this week.
2. Except for CAK and DFW which are unlikely and ANC which is still up in the air, SWA plans to continue all routes that F9 are currently flying including near-international.
3. Obviously, this is a busines decision. SWA has always looked upon good labor relations as being good for business. I don't think that SWA will intentionally let any F9 employees go unless it is absolutely necessary, because it is bad for moral and thereby bad for business.
4. A little factoid for "Lifer". SWA is the airline in the U.S with the greatest percentage of it's employees unionized. By a large margin...
08-01-2009, 07:07 PM
#209
Line Holder
Joined APC: Oct 2008
Position: A nice comfy Boeing seat.
Posts: 75
Originally Posted by FreightK9
McCaskill-Bond Legislation
SEC. 117. LABOR INTEGRATION.
(a) LABOR INTEGRATION- With respect to any covered transaction involving two or
more covered air carriers that results in the combination of crafts or classes that
are subject to the Railway Labor Act (45 U.S.C. 151 et seq.), sections 3 and 13
of the labor protective provisions imposed by the Civil Aeronautics Board in the
Allegheny-Mohawk merger (as published at 59 C.A.B. 45) shall apply to the
integration of covered employees of the covered air carriers; except that—
(1) if the same collective bargaining agent represents the combining crafts or
classes at each of the covered air carriers, that collective bargaining agent's
internal policies regarding integration, if any, will not be affected by and will
supersede the requirements of this section; and
(2) the requirements of any collective bargaining agreement that may be
applicable to the terms of integration involving covered employees of a
covered air carrier shall not be affected by the requirements of this section as
to the employees covered by that agreement, so long as those provisions
allow for the protections afforded by sections 3 and 13 of the Allegheny-
Mohawk provisions..
SEC. 117. LABOR INTEGRATION.
(a) LABOR INTEGRATION- With respect to any covered transaction involving two or
more covered air carriers that results in the combination of crafts or classes that
are subject to the Railway Labor Act (45 U.S.C. 151 et seq.), sections 3 and 13
of the labor protective provisions imposed by the Civil Aeronautics Board in the
Allegheny-Mohawk merger (as published at 59 C.A.B. 45) shall apply to the
integration of covered employees of the covered air carriers; except that—
(1) if the same collective bargaining agent represents the combining crafts or
classes at each of the covered air carriers, that collective bargaining agent's
internal policies regarding integration, if any, will not be affected by and will
supersede the requirements of this section; and
(2) the requirements of any collective bargaining agreement that may be
applicable to the terms of integration involving covered employees of a
covered air carrier shall not be affected by the requirements of this section as
to the employees covered by that agreement, so long as those provisions
allow for the protections afforded by sections 3 and 13 of the Allegheny-
Mohawk provisions..
On May 16,2007, the Senate Commerce Committee added an amendment to the FAA Reauthorization bill (the Aviation Investment and Modernization Act of 2007, S.1300) that would impose Allegheny-Mohawk Labor Protective Provisions (LPPs) on any future airline mergers or acquisitions...
Specifically, the amendment (proposed by Senator McCaskill from Missouri) amends § 6 of the Railway Labor Act, 45 U.S.C. § 156
08-01-2009, 07:12 PM
#210
Line Holder
Joined APC: Jul 2008
Posts: 56
Originally Posted by Viking602
I see the speculation continues.
Had a line check yesterday by a chief pilot and got a few more facts for those interested. Those of you who prefer speculation and flaming, disregard this post.
1. SWA/SWAPA is already going forward with the assumption that A-M/ McC-Bond is going to be a player in the integration of the F9 pilots. Yes, I said integration. At present, there are no plans as far as SWA is concerned to put any pilots on the street. As previously stated, the deal is contingent upon labor coming to terms regarding the integration of the 2 employee groups.
The term being most used in terms of seniority integration is "career expectations". Considering the fact that F9 is in bankruptcy and that a maxed out captain at F9 makes the same as a 3-yr Fo at SWA, I think that will have a big part in determining seniority integration, not DOH or any kind of ratio. SWAPA and FAPA already have a meeting scheduled to start preliminary discussions this week.
2. Except for CAK and DFW which are unlikely and ANC which is still up in the air, SWA plans to continue all routes that F9 are currently flying including near-international.
3. Obviously, this is a busines decision. SWA has always looked upon good labor relations as being good for business. I don't think that SWA will intentionally let any F9 employees go unless it is absolutely necessary, because it is bad for moral and thereby bad for business.
4. A little factoid for "Lifer". SWA is the airline in the U.S with the greatest percentage of it's employees unionized. By a large margin...
Had a line check yesterday by a chief pilot and got a few more facts for those interested. Those of you who prefer speculation and flaming, disregard this post.
1. SWA/SWAPA is already going forward with the assumption that A-M/ McC-Bond is going to be a player in the integration of the F9 pilots. Yes, I said integration. At present, there are no plans as far as SWA is concerned to put any pilots on the street. As previously stated, the deal is contingent upon labor coming to terms regarding the integration of the 2 employee groups.
The term being most used in terms of seniority integration is "career expectations". Considering the fact that F9 is in bankruptcy and that a maxed out captain at F9 makes the same as a 3-yr Fo at SWA, I think that will have a big part in determining seniority integration, not DOH or any kind of ratio. SWAPA and FAPA already have a meeting scheduled to start preliminary discussions this week.
2. Except for CAK and DFW which are unlikely and ANC which is still up in the air, SWA plans to continue all routes that F9 are currently flying including near-international.
3. Obviously, this is a busines decision. SWA has always looked upon good labor relations as being good for business. I don't think that SWA will intentionally let any F9 employees go unless it is absolutely necessary, because it is bad for moral and thereby bad for business.
4. A little factoid for "Lifer". SWA is the airline in the U.S with the greatest percentage of it's employees unionized. By a large margin...
And, BTW, a 3 yr FO at SWA makes $98 an hour while a 14 year Capt. makes $156 an hour.
A maxed out FO at SWA makes about what a 4 year F9 Capt. makes.
Oh...I got my info here...I'm assuming it is correct, yes?
Pilot Job Resources - Pilot Pay
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