Delta Pilots Association
08-16-2011 | 05:54 AM
#6131
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 1,462
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//////
All in all you have a very poor understanding of most of what you mention.
Lets go back to the pension. You can not take a earned and accrued benefit away. You can reduce what might be earned in the future as you mention. In fact they not only did they do that in a attempt to save the pension but the froze it entirely and stopped all future earnings on the DB plan. You can't reduce it more then nothing. This happened in LOA46.
A new pension was constructed with a DC plan under a matrix. Guys with over around 21 years of service were awarded nothing in the matrix. Essentially all the senior guys had all pension funding stopped. Again you advocate reducing future accruals for those pilots when in fact they did not reduce future accruals but stopped them completely.
As far as the frozen pension you say they walked away with millions. Not quite the case. The average pilot went out with 800 to 900K. Remember they had to take both age and length of service penalties if they left early. Nothing was waived. There were a few who has a million dollar plus lumps but that was not the norm. In addition most had about 100k in the MPP plan. The MPP plan was saved although the PBGC made a grab at it and failed. All pilots not just those who retired kept the MPP money. Remember that the lump some option was for 50 percent of the value of the retirement not the entire value. After the age and service cuts and then getting 50 percent rumors of multi millionaires were just that. Rumors. I had a friend with very high final average earning. He left at 55. His lump was 860,000 dollars. That was pretty much the average. His PBGC payout is zero.
So lets go back to your statement about this very powerful lobby.
"There was most certainly in the interest of a very powerful lobby of a couple thousand guys who were about to punch out at the absolute apex of C2K grandeur who made sure nothing was changed, frozen or reduced in any capacity so they could get theirs."
The DC plan was frozen in LOA 46. This very powerful lobby somehow managed to allow the new follow on DC plan not to award them 1 penny. Not quite your statement that nothing was frozen, reduced in any capacity. The company proposal on the new DC plan was a flat 9 percent to all pilots. The union redirected that money via a matrix to award nothing to the lobby you speak of and target junior pilots with more money.
Your last statement about the pilots allowed to fly after retirement as a bonus is also not quite right. Only about half the pilots got to work past retirement. The average PRP worked for 6 weeks. Most were one month extra a few were up to 3 months. A very limited number of Line Check Airman got to stay for up to 9 months. This was because the 767 FAA POA at Delta refused to qual more then 2 new 767 LC pilots per month.
Overall there is nothing but urban legend in your post with little actual fact.
All in all you have a very poor understanding of most of what you mention.
Lets go back to the pension. You can not take a earned and accrued benefit away. You can reduce what might be earned in the future as you mention. In fact they not only did they do that in a attempt to save the pension but the froze it entirely and stopped all future earnings on the DB plan. You can't reduce it more then nothing. This happened in LOA46.
A new pension was constructed with a DC plan under a matrix. Guys with over around 21 years of service were awarded nothing in the matrix. Essentially all the senior guys had all pension funding stopped. Again you advocate reducing future accruals for those pilots when in fact they did not reduce future accruals but stopped them completely.
As far as the frozen pension you say they walked away with millions. Not quite the case. The average pilot went out with 800 to 900K. Remember they had to take both age and length of service penalties if they left early. Nothing was waived. There were a few who has a million dollar plus lumps but that was not the norm. In addition most had about 100k in the MPP plan. The MPP plan was saved although the PBGC made a grab at it and failed. All pilots not just those who retired kept the MPP money. Remember that the lump some option was for 50 percent of the value of the retirement not the entire value. After the age and service cuts and then getting 50 percent rumors of multi millionaires were just that. Rumors. I had a friend with very high final average earning. He left at 55. His lump was 860,000 dollars. That was pretty much the average. His PBGC payout is zero.
So lets go back to your statement about this very powerful lobby.
"There was most certainly in the interest of a very powerful lobby of a couple thousand guys who were about to punch out at the absolute apex of C2K grandeur who made sure nothing was changed, frozen or reduced in any capacity so they could get theirs."
The DC plan was frozen in LOA 46. This very powerful lobby somehow managed to allow the new follow on DC plan not to award them 1 penny. Not quite your statement that nothing was frozen, reduced in any capacity. The company proposal on the new DC plan was a flat 9 percent to all pilots. The union redirected that money via a matrix to award nothing to the lobby you speak of and target junior pilots with more money.
Your last statement about the pilots allowed to fly after retirement as a bonus is also not quite right. Only about half the pilots got to work past retirement. The average PRP worked for 6 weeks. Most were one month extra a few were up to 3 months. A very limited number of Line Check Airman got to stay for up to 9 months. This was because the 767 FAA POA at Delta refused to qual more then 2 new 767 LC pilots per month.
Overall there is nothing but urban legend in your post with little actual fact.
08-16-2011 | 03:16 PM
#6132
veut gagner à la loterie
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 23,286
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From: Light Chop
I was so depressed last night thinking about the DPA / ALPA fight, the economy, wars, jobs, my savings, Social Security, retirement funds, etc., I called the Suicide Hotline. I was transferred to a call center in Pakistan, and when I told them I was suicidal, they got all excited, and asked if I could drive a truck.
08-16-2011 | 03:26 PM
#6133
veut gagner à la loterie
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 23,286
Likes: 0
From: Light Chop
The following question is not a trick question. I'd ask it in L&G but I think it'd just end up needing to be here.
This is mostly for the ALPA insiders, the thick gray mustache clan, if Delta decides that after negotiating the RFPs with manufacturers that the EMB-190 is the best deal, will it automatically come here or will they want to "negotiate"?
We already have pay rates for it, which for some reason are the same as the CRJ900? But pay rates are there and if the RFP was 200 A319s there would be no question where they are going, here.
But the 190 for some reason comes with a question mark even among those at the GO who know what the contract says. Not saying they want to outsource it, just saying they seem to have a question mark about where it will fly.
Does the E190 require negotiation? Thoughts?
This is mostly for the ALPA insiders, the thick gray mustache clan, if Delta decides that after negotiating the RFPs with manufacturers that the EMB-190 is the best deal, will it automatically come here or will they want to "negotiate"?
We already have pay rates for it, which for some reason are the same as the CRJ900? But pay rates are there and if the RFP was 200 A319s there would be no question where they are going, here.
But the 190 for some reason comes with a question mark even among those at the GO who know what the contract says. Not saying they want to outsource it, just saying they seem to have a question mark about where it will fly.
Does the E190 require negotiation? Thoughts?
08-16-2011 | 04:00 PM
#6134
The Brown Dot +1
Joined: Jun 2009
Posts: 7,775
Likes: 0
From: 777B
FTB;
This is not an answer to you question, but just a tag-on for more info. Operationally, the E190 has not been the stellar reliability performer that the operators hoped it would be. I do not have complete details on its shortcomings (some of which have been sorted out), but for this reason, the E190 carries a mainline question mark.
I heard a funny new nam for an airplane. Apparently quantas calls the A380 the A180 because when it pushes off the gate it does a 180 and goes back to it.
This is not an answer to you question, but just a tag-on for more info. Operationally, the E190 has not been the stellar reliability performer that the operators hoped it would be. I do not have complete details on its shortcomings (some of which have been sorted out), but for this reason, the E190 carries a mainline question mark.
I heard a funny new nam for an airplane. Apparently quantas calls the A380 the A180 because when it pushes off the gate it does a 180 and goes back to it.
08-16-2011 | 06:34 PM
#6135
Happy to be here
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 18,563
Likes: 0
From: A-320A
The following question is not a trick question. I'd ask it in L&G but I think it'd just end up needing to be here.
This is mostly for the ALPA insiders, the thick gray mustache clan, if Delta decides that after negotiating the RFPs with manufacturers that the EMB-190 is the best deal, will it automatically come here or will they want to "negotiate"?
We already have pay rates for it, which for some reason are the same as the CRJ900? But pay rates are there and if the RFP was 200 A319s there would be no question where they are going, here.
But the 190 for some reason comes with a question mark even among those at the GO who know what the contract says. Not saying they want to outsource it, just saying they seem to have a question mark about where it will fly.
Does the E190 require negotiation? Thoughts?
This is mostly for the ALPA insiders, the thick gray mustache clan, if Delta decides that after negotiating the RFPs with manufacturers that the EMB-190 is the best deal, will it automatically come here or will they want to "negotiate"?
We already have pay rates for it, which for some reason are the same as the CRJ900? But pay rates are there and if the RFP was 200 A319s there would be no question where they are going, here.
But the 190 for some reason comes with a question mark even among those at the GO who know what the contract says. Not saying they want to outsource it, just saying they seem to have a question mark about where it will fly.
Does the E190 require negotiation? Thoughts?
If we sell it willfully, we get what we deserve.
08-16-2011 | 08:34 PM
#6137
veut gagner à la loterie
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 23,286
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From: Light Chop
By default, it is flown by us, and I think we can tell that no one has the stomach for selling anymore scope. That said, I believe that they they choose the 190/195(which we have a payrate for) there would be a push to bring like types to mainline for training efficiencies. Not an insider answer, just my personal opinion.
If we sell it willfully, we get what we deserve.
If we sell it willfully, we get what we deserve.
I'm just hearing rumors but the ? was attached as to who would fly it. It's like, really? They want to attach a question mark to something that doesn't deserve a question mark any more than if you said we were going to acquire the A350. That said, I don't doubt the question mark would be attached, I was curious as to the chances it would be as we, or if we, close in on a new aircraft order.
08-16-2011 | 08:40 PM
#6138
veut gagner à la loterie
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 23,286
Likes: 0
From: Light Chop
FTB;
This is not an answer to you question, but just a tag-on for more info. Operationally, the E190 has not been the stellar reliability performer that the operators hoped it would be. I do not have complete details on its shortcomings (some of which have been sorted out), but for this reason, the E190 carries a mainline question mark.
I heard a funny new nam for an airplane. Apparently quantas calls the A380 the A180 because when it pushes off the gate it does a 180 and goes back to it.
This is not an answer to you question, but just a tag-on for more info. Operationally, the E190 has not been the stellar reliability performer that the operators hoped it would be. I do not have complete details on its shortcomings (some of which have been sorted out), but for this reason, the E190 carries a mainline question mark.
I heard a funny new nam for an airplane. Apparently quantas calls the A380 the A180 because when it pushes off the gate it does a 180 and goes back to it.
Embraer offers a nose-to-tail unscheduled and scheduled maintenance program on it's corporate jets, it was about $12K a month during the warranty period and doubled outside of it. Fwiw, the rock solid RR/AE3007 engines were more per month and they never had a problem... but if they did!
Just saying to win a Delta award, especially a mainline Delta award, would be enormous and may be worth a lot of giveaways that Embraer evidently wasn't willing to do a while back.
I wonder when the last time PMDAL ordered new aircraft (FOR MAINLINE) from a manufacturer that was not Boeing or Douglas?
They used to call the ERJ-145 the E180.
08-16-2011 | 09:51 PM
#6140
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 113
Likes: 0
From: 797 F/O
DPA: remember the vote on the floor in Philadelphia when the decision was made to ratify a declaration of independance from a monarch? Everyone that voted knew that the penalty for this was death by hanging (and perhaps, even the family members). Quite a chilling picture if you can actually put yourself there. We (as a country) once realized that we were strong and could fight for ourselves and decided that we want to be free. Our founding fathers, that bear the very same resemblance of the pieces of paper that we use for tips to pay the drivers that do the same job that we do (albeit on the ground at 1/10th the speed and difficulty) or the airport terminal choke-n-pukes where we are forced to pollute our digestive systems due to 40 minute turn times on a daily basis. We (as a pilot group) are now big enough and strong enough to stand that fitght. At least now, we cannot swing from the gallows for our movement. On the other hand, no fight that is worth the high ground is easy. The question is, should we Declare Independence and prosper? HOLD THE LINE!!!
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