The AirTran Pilots' Windfall and SLI
12-14-2010, 03:53 PM
#51
Works Every Weekend
Joined APC: Dec 2007
Position: 737 ATL
Posts: 3,506
Originally Posted by Rolf
I believe both union groups adviced against this public debating stuff. Tempers flare, feelings get hurt and suddenly lines get drawn. Let's just vote on something and if it ain't good enough for BOTH groups....arbitration.
Public debate, tempers, feelings and forum line drawing are all irrelevant.
This is headed for arbitration without any doubt. He will decide.
The only thing that matters is the presentations and evidence put forward by your merger reps in the hearings and meetings with the arbitrator. If either side goes hard line, acts unreasonable and doesn't offer any useful methodology to the arbitrator they are likely to get a rude awakening.
Joining ALPA a couple years ago was the best move the AirTran guys ever made. They now have access to enormous resources to bring to this arbitration.
12-14-2010, 05:09 PM
#53
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jun 2009
Posts: 5,113
Originally Posted by mastercraft
While I do truly appreciate your sound and unbiased reasoning, I still disagree.
Yes I KNOW AAI negotiated the new contract with some sort of coordination with LUV, as I stated previously.
As far as the judge is concerned, the contract that was in force on Sept 27 was a contract too!
You seem to see it as coincidence that a group that voted 98% in favor of strike after 5+ years of mediation, fighting against one of the indutry's most aggressive and oppresive managements, suddenly made friends with their management two weeks after the acquisition was announced and got a TA.
Reality check- without this announcement, the AT pilots would still be in mediation (though probably on ice until after the new year) and would still be wishing SWA would come to save them...even if that meant a staple!
Yes I KNOW AAI negotiated the new contract with some sort of coordination with LUV, as I stated previously.
As far as the judge is concerned, the contract that was in force on Sept 27 was a contract too!
You seem to see it as coincidence that a group that voted 98% in favor of strike after 5+ years of mediation, fighting against one of the indutry's most aggressive and oppresive managements, suddenly made friends with their management two weeks after the acquisition was announced and got a TA.
Reality check- without this announcement, the AT pilots would still be in mediation (though probably on ice until after the new year) and would still be wishing SWA would come to save them...even if that meant a staple!
Where you are dead wrong, is in the salvation argument. AAI didn't need to be saved anymore than you need to be saved. Or any less. There is no winning by following this rationale. You're not going to convince a judge, and you're not going to convince the AAI pilots. If it makes you feel good to imagine you're saving a group, and you find a LUV pilot that feels the same way, then you can enjoy the thrill of bashing the other side privately.
What you need to consider is that the fact the other side is getting a raise in an of itself doesn't mean all that much. It's merely one equity being brought to the table. You may have more success getting credit for having a greater proportion (100%) of the larger aiplane, but it's shades of smaller narrow-bodies anyway.
Bottom line: the companies need each other, and the assets of either side are just as valuble to the other. In management's eyes, both of you will do the same function before and after, and they have absolutely zero ambition to ruin the merger by trying to play favorites. This is why the arbitration will be driven, promptly, to something that works for the company.
12-14-2010, 05:09 PM
#54
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Mar 2006
Posts: 296
Originally Posted by Check Essential
Joining ALPA a couple years ago was the best move the AirTran guys ever made. They now have access to enormous resources to bring to this arbitration.
12-14-2010, 05:24 PM
#55
Works Every Weekend
Joined APC: Dec 2007
Position: 737 ATL
Posts: 3,506
Originally Posted by Rolf
I could be wrong, but I do believe both groups get to vote. If either votes no then we are off to see the arbiter. I'm hoping we can work something out.
Been there, done that.
12-14-2010, 05:25 PM
#56
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jun 2009
Posts: 5,113
Originally Posted by mastercraft
I don't deny that AT brings equity to the table. They are a hard-working, prefessional group of pilots who have been beaten down for years. That doesn't greatly change my opinions though.
If their pilots wanted better, they could have left for SWA, or anyone else. In fact, many tried at SWA(think hundreds...literally). Few were accepted. Hundreds of other AT pilots left for CAL, DAL, UPS, FedEx, Cathay, Emarites, etc. The ones who stayed now want in on a big piece of something much bigger than they ever could have reasonably imagined.
While I understand your tendancy to relate this to DAL/NWA, it just isn't an apples to apples comparison. I know some NWA pilots saw considerable raises...but certainly not 75-80%. The vastly superior schedules and number of days off weren't the case either. Not to mention that one surely wasn't four times the size of the other.
If their pilots wanted better, they could have left for SWA, or anyone else. In fact, many tried at SWA(think hundreds...literally). Few were accepted. Hundreds of other AT pilots left for CAL, DAL, UPS, FedEx, Cathay, Emarites, etc. The ones who stayed now want in on a big piece of something much bigger than they ever could have reasonably imagined.
While I understand your tendancy to relate this to DAL/NWA, it just isn't an apples to apples comparison. I know some NWA pilots saw considerable raises...but certainly not 75-80%. The vastly superior schedules and number of days off weren't the case either. Not to mention that one surely wasn't four times the size of the other.
2) I relate this to DAL/NWA only in the sense that there is a psychological angle to this stuff. You never will get anywhere until you start truly understanding that the other side also has valid points, and you start working towards an effective solution. Not a win: a solution you can live with.
Maybe you're correct, and maybe you're more disparate than DAL/NWA. I don't know who had the quicker upgrade time, and I don't know who will score more points in their arguments. All I know, from my experience, is that you've got a lot of steps ahead of you before you can start getting a mental hold of this situation, which is the point at which you'll be able to make more effective arguments for your side.
Good luck.
12-14-2010, 05:27 PM
#57
Works Every Weekend
Joined APC: Dec 2007
Position: 737 ATL
Posts: 3,506
Originally Posted by Bigflya
Yes. AT's been in ALPA about a year or so and they will get a new contract and merger arbitration assistance. Then they will leave ALPA for SWAPA. They will get more then they put in IMO. Lucky them.
Skillful manuevering at critical moments might see SWAPA joining ALPA.
Fear is a powerful motive.
12-14-2010, 05:29 PM
#58
No longer cares
Joined APC: Mar 2008
Position: 767er Captain
Posts: 12,109
Originally Posted by mastercraft
I don't deny that AT brings equity to the table. They are a hard-working, prefessional group of pilots who have been beaten down for years. That doesn't greatly change my opinions though.
If their pilots wanted better, they could have left for SWA, or anyone else. In fact, many tried at SWA(think hundreds...literally). Few were accepted. Hundreds of other AT pilots left for CAL, DAL, UPS, FedEx, Cathay, Emarites, etc. The ones who stayed now want in on a big piece of something much bigger than they ever could have reasonably imagined.
While I understand your tendancy to relate this to DAL/NWA, it just isn't an apples to apples comparison. I know some NWA pilots saw considerable raises...but certainly not 75-80%. The vastly superior schedules and number of days off weren't the case either. Not to mention that one surely wasn't four times the size of the other.
If their pilots wanted better, they could have left for SWA, or anyone else. In fact, many tried at SWA(think hundreds...literally). Few were accepted. Hundreds of other AT pilots left for CAL, DAL, UPS, FedEx, Cathay, Emarites, etc. The ones who stayed now want in on a big piece of something much bigger than they ever could have reasonably imagined.
While I understand your tendancy to relate this to DAL/NWA, it just isn't an apples to apples comparison. I know some NWA pilots saw considerable raises...but certainly not 75-80%. The vastly superior schedules and number of days off weren't the case either. Not to mention that one surely wasn't four times the size of the other.
wow.... just..... wow.
12-14-2010, 05:33 PM
#60
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Apr 2009
Position: What day is it?
Posts: 963
Originally Posted by Check Essential
Don't under-estimate Moak.
Skillful manuevering at critical moments might see SWAPA joining ALPA.
Fear is a powerful motive.
Skillful manuevering at critical moments might see SWAPA joining ALPA.
Fear is a powerful motive.
You might want to put the 02 on positive pressure 100%...
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