The AirTran Pilots' Windfall and SLI
#41
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jun 2009
Posts: 5,113
Its should not be relevant what the AAI contract does or doesn't allow. Particularly a contract that started as an agreement in principle in which Gary Kelly himself (at the NMB in DC) urged both sides to agree on. IF SWA were to violate the 18-month limit on seperate ops, and ATN ALPA were to seek a court injunction (as the ATN ALPA VC has said will happen), do you think a judge will enforce the language of the acquired pilot groups' brand new contract?
If the 737's (which will very soon become the property of SWA) were to come to the SWA side, AT would strictly be a 717 operator. By nature of this fact, it would be seperate in an operational sense.
While I appreciate the 400 points for advanced flaming, I'm just trying to point out some realities. Guadalupe Holdings and the structure of the acquisition seem to allow for alternate avenues should anything threaten to deteriorate the strong culture SWA is built on.
If the 737's (which will very soon become the property of SWA) were to come to the SWA side, AT would strictly be a 717 operator. By nature of this fact, it would be seperate in an operational sense.
While I appreciate the 400 points for advanced flaming, I'm just trying to point out some realities. Guadalupe Holdings and the structure of the acquisition seem to allow for alternate avenues should anything threaten to deteriorate the strong culture SWA is built on.
Now, your culture, presumably of caring for employees and customers is being tested through this merger. In your case, it sure isn't translating into very much concern about a large chunk of new employees. Case in point, your comment: "...Its should not be relevant what the AAI contract does or doesn't allow...". This suggests to me you are far from getting it. You might think the purpose of the company is to take care of you, but the company's plan is to take care of the shareholder. To the extent your "culture", and your personal satisfaction are a tool for furthering those goals, you're going to be happy. But to the extent your ambition might be to protect your personal turf as a "real" Southwest guy, you're going to be very disappointed. Your company wants to integrate the groups (read the quote presented to the SEC about integration). The arbitrator, you will be sad to learn, doesn't work for you, and isn't trying to pick a winner in a SLI hearing: he is there to deliver for the company a list that allows a functioning integration. So when you ask a rethorical question about whether the judge will consider the newly minted AAI contract, I'm affraid you're dreaming about the answer. The judge will ABSOLUTELY consider the AAI contract, a) because it's a contract and b) because the merger was fully factored in when it was signed. You think AAI negotiated a new contract without some sort of coordination with LUV?
I think you've got a long ways to go before you understand what your company wants to see happen, and before you get used to the idea that the AAI group will be part of the family, or that they're not going to sleep outside. They may be all stepchildren to you, but they're also going to get to choose rooms in the end.
Good luck figuring it out.
#42
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2010
Position: Phoenix
Posts: 732
Again, nearly 40 years of good luck, fortune, great mgmt, and great decisions! Its great to any company, whether airline or not, have this as a business model. Putting employees first, and customers second, and a little luck from great business decisions have made sw a very strong competitor in todays streamlined airline industry. I dont know the specifics on how all this is going to play out, but rest assured that many parties will be watching, especially alpa. Politics and business are not fair, and as front line employees, I hope everything comes out fair for all my brothers and sisters. Good luck everyone!
#43
On Reserve
Thread Starter
Joined APC: Oct 2006
Position: 737 FO
Posts: 20
So when you ask a rethorical question about whether the judge will consider the newly minted AAI contract, I'm affraid you're dreaming about the answer. The judge will ABSOLUTELY consider the AAI contract, a) because it's a contract and b) because the merger was fully factored in when it was signed. You think AAI negotiated a new contract without some sort of coordination with LUV?
Yes I KNOW AAI negotiated the new contract with some sort of coordination with LUV, as I stated previously.
As far as the judge is concerned, the contract that was in force on Sept 27 was a contract too!
You seem to see it as coincidence that a group that voted 98% in favor of strike after 5+ years of mediation, fighting against one of the indutry's most aggressive and oppresive managements, suddenly made friends with their management two weeks after the acquisition was announced and got a TA.
Reality check- without this announcement, the AT pilots would still be in mediation (though probably on ice until after the new year) and would still be wishing SWA would come to save them...even if that meant a staple!
#44
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jan 2008
Posts: 1,190
While I do truly appreciate your sound and unbiased reasoning, I still disagree.
Yes I KNOW AAI negotiated the new contract with some sort of coordination with LUV, as I stated previously.
As far as the judge is concerned, the contract that was in force on Sept 27 was a contract too!
You seem to see it as coincidence that a group that voted 98% in favor of strike after 5+ years of mediation, fighting against one of the indutry's most aggressive and oppresive managements, suddenly made friends with their management two weeks after the acquisition was announced and got a TA.
Reality check- without this announcement, the AT pilots would still be in mediation (though probably on ice until after the new year) and would still be wishing SWA would come to save them...even if that meant a staple!
Yes I KNOW AAI negotiated the new contract with some sort of coordination with LUV, as I stated previously.
As far as the judge is concerned, the contract that was in force on Sept 27 was a contract too!
You seem to see it as coincidence that a group that voted 98% in favor of strike after 5+ years of mediation, fighting against one of the indutry's most aggressive and oppresive managements, suddenly made friends with their management two weeks after the acquisition was announced and got a TA.
Reality check- without this announcement, the AT pilots would still be in mediation (though probably on ice until after the new year) and would still be wishing SWA would come to save them...even if that meant a staple!
#46
On Reserve
Thread Starter
Joined APC: Oct 2006
Position: 737 FO
Posts: 20
If their pilots wanted better, they could have left for SWA, or anyone else. In fact, many tried at SWA(think hundreds...literally). Few were accepted. Hundreds of other AT pilots left for CAL, DAL, UPS, FedEx, Cathay, Emarites, etc. The ones who stayed now want in on a big piece of something much bigger than they ever could have reasonably imagined.
While I understand your tendancy to relate this to DAL/NWA, it just isn't an apples to apples comparison. I know some NWA pilots saw considerable raises...but certainly not 75-80%. The vastly superior schedules and number of days off weren't the case either. Not to mention that one surely wasn't four times the size of the other.
#47
On Reserve
Thread Starter
Joined APC: Oct 2006
Position: 737 FO
Posts: 20
To be perfectly clear, I didn't say anything to suggest the AT pilots should be stapled. I did say their pilots have mentioned a willingness to be stapled by a savior numerous times over the years. That part is fact!
#48
I believe both union groups adviced against this public debating stuff. Tempers flare, feelings get hurt and suddenly lines get drawn. Let's just vote on something and if it ain't good enough for BOTH groups....arbitration.
#49
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2008
Posts: 19,224
I don't deny that AT brings equity to the table. They are a hard-working, prefessional group of pilots who have been beaten down for years. That doesn't greatly change my opinions though.
If their pilots wanted better, they could have left for SWA, or anyone else. In fact, many tried at SWA(think hundreds...literally). Few were accepted. Hundreds of other AT pilots left for CAL, DAL, UPS, FedEx, Cathay, Emarites, etc. The ones who stayed now want in on a big piece of something much bigger than they ever could have reasonably imagined.
While I understand your tendancy to relate this to DAL/NWA, it just isn't an apples to apples comparison. I know some NWA pilots saw considerable raises...but certainly not 75-80%. The vastly superior schedules and number of days off weren't the case either. Not to mention that one surely wasn't four times the size of the other.
If their pilots wanted better, they could have left for SWA, or anyone else. In fact, many tried at SWA(think hundreds...literally). Few were accepted. Hundreds of other AT pilots left for CAL, DAL, UPS, FedEx, Cathay, Emarites, etc. The ones who stayed now want in on a big piece of something much bigger than they ever could have reasonably imagined.
While I understand your tendancy to relate this to DAL/NWA, it just isn't an apples to apples comparison. I know some NWA pilots saw considerable raises...but certainly not 75-80%. The vastly superior schedules and number of days off weren't the case either. Not to mention that one surely wasn't four times the size of the other.
Those are all points you can make to the arbitrator. AirTran will make their points to the arbitrator also. He will then take everything into consideration and produce a seniority list. There is no way for SW to avoid arbitration. Put your very best people on your SLI committee and hope they do a good job. Now is the time to start looking at past mergers to see what works and how to conduct yourselves in the arbitration process.
#50
Line Holder
Joined APC: Sep 2007
Posts: 28
so... Mastercraft...How did you get hired onto Southwest with such a LUVable attitude toward your fellow pilots? You must be a hoot to fly with...unless, of course, you are just the "brave while anonymous" type.
I've looked back at all of your prior posts...now I understand why you are "flaming".......upset about the years of seniority you gave up to make that leap huh?
I've looked back at all of your prior posts...now I understand why you are "flaming".......upset about the years of seniority you gave up to make that leap huh?
Last edited by needmo; 12-14-2010 at 03:46 PM.
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