Frontier/Republic for Idiots... What am I mis
06-14-2011 | 03:28 PM
#12
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Joined: Jul 2009
Posts: 1,128
Likes: 1
From: Downwind, headed straight for the rocks, shanghaied aboard the ship of fools.
Mr. Faultpush, you've left some things out of your rather subjective description of recent events. First off, I have yet to run into a single pilot here who feels entitled to one of your Airbus seats as a result of our purchase. I challenge you to find a single post on this forum to the contrary. Even if you could find such a post, it would be quite clear to all that it is not representative of the majority of us rah types. As for the IBT wanting something vastly different you forgot to mention that F9's and yx's wildly unrealistic expectations were the reason for the vast difference. We purchased you. Therefore we do not get stapled to the bottom of your list. In no way would that be reasonable and the proof can be found in the results of an impartial and objective arbitration of the integration of the seniority lists. You also forgot to mention that the representation of
the purchasing airline, the IBT, was the only one that offered a proposal which unselfishly offered a blending of all the different groups. I hope the lists do indeed remain separate. First of all, it would be nice for 190s to not be flown for such pathetic rates. That would be good for all. Secondly, Frontier is going to go west as they say and I don't want to be dragged down with you. Most of us are here because we want to learn and get experience in order to secure a better job and future. No one I've talked to ever wanted anything to do with you or Midwest. Your stereotypes are inaccurate and boorish. I'm sorry to see you're still consumed by rage Mr. Rat. Peace brother.
the purchasing airline, the IBT, was the only one that offered a proposal which unselfishly offered a blending of all the different groups. I hope the lists do indeed remain separate. First of all, it would be nice for 190s to not be flown for such pathetic rates. That would be good for all. Secondly, Frontier is going to go west as they say and I don't want to be dragged down with you. Most of us are here because we want to learn and get experience in order to secure a better job and future. No one I've talked to ever wanted anything to do with you or Midwest. Your stereotypes are inaccurate and boorish. I'm sorry to see you're still consumed by rage Mr. Rat. Peace brother.
06-14-2011 | 03:35 PM
#13
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Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 394
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From: In the bunk
aa73: Here's a version from a Frontier pilot's perspective. Frontier went into Ch 11, had a late offer by SWA with 24 hours to negotiate a seniority integration. If thatby itself is not enough for you to determine the outcome, SWA wanted a staple with no job protections for the approximately 1/3 of our pilots who would have been furloughed in the process. We proposed that we'd consider a staple if they would guarantee pay and benefits for the furloughed pilots. Time ran out (surprise!), RAH's offer was accepted, and would likely have been even chosen if FAPA had accepted the staple job from SWA, due to the conditions of the Southwest offer.
Although the timeline was short, there was Alot more time than 24 hours. At one point, FAPA stopped calling Swapa back, thereby dragging their feet till time ran out.
The only people ever mentioning a possible furlough were FAPA. SWAPA or SWA never mentioned furloughs, and no pilot had ever been furloughed at SWA. FAPA used furloughs to scare the junior pilots to go along with them.
Finally, FAPA wouldn't agree on a staple no matter what. They wanted seat protections for their captains. They never ever ever said they would be willing to be stapled, on the contrary, they were looking for relative DOH with a ratio.
I do feel bad for the junior pilots at F9. But your senior cappies and your union screwed you guys over. It seems like the F9 pilots were the only ones that didn't see the current events as inevitable.
06-14-2011 | 03:44 PM
#14
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Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 311
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From: A300, FO
Just to be clear: I think that means that you think that what happened to the TWA guys was generous, right?
aa73: Here's a version from a Frontier pilot's perspective. Frontier went into Ch 11, had a late offer by SWA with 24 hours to negotiate a seniority integration. If thatby itself is not enough for you to determine the outcome, SWA wanted a staple with no job protections for the approximately 1/3 of our pilots who would have been furloughed in the process. We proposed that we'd consider a staple if they would guarantee pay and benefits for the furloughed pilots. Time ran out (surprise!), RAH's offer was accepted, and would likely have been even chosen if FAPA had accepted the staple job from SWA, due to the conditions of the Southwest offer.
The Lynx, Frontier, and Midwest pilots attempted to negotiate a seniority integration, and were somewhere in the same ballpark. IBT (for RAH pilots) showed up late and asked for something very different from what the other three groups were working on. The SLI ended up in arbitration, with more or less a percentage merger. I'm a Frontier captain with 2 years more longevity than the E145 immediately above me on the combined list. FAPA did the usual thing in an SLI and filed appeals.
YEP they agreed to go to BINDING ARBITRATION when it didn't come out the way they wanted they started to cry and take the ball and go home.
RAH merged the operation of the two airlines to the point where the NMB ruled that we are a single carrier (watch out AA guys - Eagle might get a sweet deal if they can do the same!) That means that in 7 years, when the fence comes down, I potentially might get bumped from Airbus captain to ERJ captain.
your crazy did you read the SLI? No bump no flush! get your facts straight before you post makes you look even more like an idiot
Frontier has been bleeding due to the high oil prices and low RASM. By year's end, the losses on the Frontier side will exceed the profits of the fee for departure side. The RAH BOD told Bedford to fix it or they would have to shut down Frontier. Bedford came to FAPA, Airbus, GECAS, airports, etc, looking for reductions in costs. FAPA agreed to a pay freeze in return for an equity investment in the company, separation from RAH, and profit sharing. The conditions of the agreement state that if the other parties don't also chip in, we continue to get our snapbacks to payrates prior the bankruptcy (and the likely demise of Frontier).
The RAH pilots are upset that they may not get to slide into an Airbus without having to interview and start back at the bottom somewhere else, and are thus pretty ****ed that the SLI might be mooted.
But you wanted to on equals with SWA right? you didn't want to be stapled. neither did we, and we are the acquiring carrier
On the representation side of things, there is a representation vote going on, which no party wanted but was forced on us by the NMB. RAH/IBT has 2000 pilots to Frontier's 650. IBT has offered no certainty that Frontier pilots would have any representation on their EXCO (similar to MEC), so FAPA is pitching the Republic Pilots Council which would leave the current representation on each side intact, with a common council of 3 pilots from each airline to work on merging us in an equitable fashion. IBT doesn't want that to happen, because it's better for RAH/IBT to have total control vs. sharing it with the Frontier pilots.
aa73: Here's a version from a Frontier pilot's perspective. Frontier went into Ch 11, had a late offer by SWA with 24 hours to negotiate a seniority integration. If thatby itself is not enough for you to determine the outcome, SWA wanted a staple with no job protections for the approximately 1/3 of our pilots who would have been furloughed in the process. We proposed that we'd consider a staple if they would guarantee pay and benefits for the furloughed pilots. Time ran out (surprise!), RAH's offer was accepted, and would likely have been even chosen if FAPA had accepted the staple job from SWA, due to the conditions of the Southwest offer.
The Lynx, Frontier, and Midwest pilots attempted to negotiate a seniority integration, and were somewhere in the same ballpark. IBT (for RAH pilots) showed up late and asked for something very different from what the other three groups were working on. The SLI ended up in arbitration, with more or less a percentage merger. I'm a Frontier captain with 2 years more longevity than the E145 immediately above me on the combined list. FAPA did the usual thing in an SLI and filed appeals.
YEP they agreed to go to BINDING ARBITRATION when it didn't come out the way they wanted they started to cry and take the ball and go home.
RAH merged the operation of the two airlines to the point where the NMB ruled that we are a single carrier (watch out AA guys - Eagle might get a sweet deal if they can do the same!) That means that in 7 years, when the fence comes down, I potentially might get bumped from Airbus captain to ERJ captain.
your crazy did you read the SLI? No bump no flush! get your facts straight before you post makes you look even more like an idiot
Frontier has been bleeding due to the high oil prices and low RASM. By year's end, the losses on the Frontier side will exceed the profits of the fee for departure side. The RAH BOD told Bedford to fix it or they would have to shut down Frontier. Bedford came to FAPA, Airbus, GECAS, airports, etc, looking for reductions in costs. FAPA agreed to a pay freeze in return for an equity investment in the company, separation from RAH, and profit sharing. The conditions of the agreement state that if the other parties don't also chip in, we continue to get our snapbacks to payrates prior the bankruptcy (and the likely demise of Frontier).
The RAH pilots are upset that they may not get to slide into an Airbus without having to interview and start back at the bottom somewhere else, and are thus pretty ****ed that the SLI might be mooted.
But you wanted to on equals with SWA right? you didn't want to be stapled. neither did we, and we are the acquiring carrier
On the representation side of things, there is a representation vote going on, which no party wanted but was forced on us by the NMB. RAH/IBT has 2000 pilots to Frontier's 650. IBT has offered no certainty that Frontier pilots would have any representation on their EXCO (similar to MEC), so FAPA is pitching the Republic Pilots Council which would leave the current representation on each side intact, with a common council of 3 pilots from each airline to work on merging us in an equitable fashion. IBT doesn't want that to happen, because it's better for RAH/IBT to have total control vs. sharing it with the Frontier pilots.
Our leadership has said publicly that we do not know your current CBA and would not be able to enforce it. Therefore would have elections of representatives to appropriately administer your CBA.
You really need to stop drinking the cool aid that BB is giving you. When you all are on the street I bet your going to start complaining that you are entitled to a EMB spot, you can not have it both ways. we need to unite under the IBT and together we can prosper. Take a look at history and you will see you are heading down a very slippery slope with regards to previous attempts by management to give the pilots a share of the airline in exchange for concessions.
this place is failing and now your just going to make less money until it does.
06-14-2011 | 03:57 PM
#16
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Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 992
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From: retired
Uh........not quite true. There were a quite a few Midwest pilots flying the line after the buy out took place. BB spent several million for an early termination of the remaining 717s.
06-14-2011 | 04:08 PM
#17
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Joined: Aug 2009
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aa73,
It was established in a very lengthy thread, many months ago, that SWAPA had no authority to offer anything other than a straight staple. That explains why they waited to start negotiations until the final hour. Any single variation from a staple would have had to be voted on by SWAPA members, and there was not time. This is all from a SWAPA pilot.
FAPA thought we deserved better, and tried to negotiate, but SWAPA had no wiggle room as previously stated. If FAPA ignored calls, as their side of the rumor goes, it seems pointless that they should have to listen to "STAPLE" five more times - especially when it became apparent that the offer by republic was going to beat SW's by a mile (for the unsecured creditors) .
I personally believe that I would have been one of the FO's who did not get job protection, so depsite what a SW pilot tells you about how a Junior F9 FO feels, I am here to tell you that I am still - with all of this going on - happy with the outcome. The 2% over there who can't let it go, just can't handle how the ugly girl at the dance didn't want to tango with the quarterback. Hope that helps.
It was established in a very lengthy thread, many months ago, that SWAPA had no authority to offer anything other than a straight staple. That explains why they waited to start negotiations until the final hour. Any single variation from a staple would have had to be voted on by SWAPA members, and there was not time. This is all from a SWAPA pilot.
FAPA thought we deserved better, and tried to negotiate, but SWAPA had no wiggle room as previously stated. If FAPA ignored calls, as their side of the rumor goes, it seems pointless that they should have to listen to "STAPLE" five more times - especially when it became apparent that the offer by republic was going to beat SW's by a mile (for the unsecured creditors) .
I personally believe that I would have been one of the FO's who did not get job protection, so depsite what a SW pilot tells you about how a Junior F9 FO feels, I am here to tell you that I am still - with all of this going on - happy with the outcome. The 2% over there who can't let it go, just can't handle how the ugly girl at the dance didn't want to tango with the quarterback. Hope that helps.
06-14-2011 | 04:14 PM
#18
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Joined: May 2008
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2. Then why did IBT object to the gist of the what the other three carriers were working on. Were you worried that our Airbus FO's wanted to bid RJ captain for less pay and lower QOL?
Finally a non-F9 guy who is also fallling for BB's line.
06-14-2011 | 04:23 PM
#19
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Joined: May 2008
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Although the timeline was short, there was Alot more time than 24 hours. At one point, FAPA stopped calling Swapa back, thereby dragging their feet till time ran out.
The only people ever mentioning a possible furlough were FAPA. SWAPA or SWA never mentioned furloughs, and no pilot had ever been furloughed at SWA. FAPA used furloughs to scare the junior pilots to go along with them.
Finally, FAPA wouldn't agree on a staple no matter what. They wanted seat protections for their captains. They never ever ever said they would be willing to be stapled, on the contrary, they were looking for relative DOH with a ratio.
.
The only people ever mentioning a possible furlough were FAPA. SWAPA or SWA never mentioned furloughs, and no pilot had ever been furloughed at SWA. FAPA used furloughs to scare the junior pilots to go along with them.
Finally, FAPA wouldn't agree on a staple no matter what. They wanted seat protections for their captains. They never ever ever said they would be willing to be stapled, on the contrary, they were looking for relative DOH with a ratio.
.
If furloughs weren't a concern, then why was there any issue with FAPA asking for guarantees of that? Why wouldn't SWAPA guarantee representation of any furloughees? SWAPA stated that any furloughed pilots would be represented by FAPA until they were on property, and wouldn't say what would happen to them after the integration when FAPA ceased to be.
FAPA wanted seat protection for captains because anything else would have been a windfall for SWAPA (300 upgrades) at the expense of FAPA (300 downgrades), which is stated as one of the things to avoid in SLI's.
06-14-2011 | 04:25 PM
#20
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Joined: Aug 2009
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It was at that. Now we are suppose to come on this forum and read thread after thread of back and forth whining. What does the F9 and RAH pilots want from the rest of us? You want us to choose sides? Most of us, especially me, hope you both go down the toilet. I hope BB screws you as bad as he did me. It will be nice to see the pond scum from RAH fly the Airbus before he shuts you down. Be glad you even have a job. You could be like me and have it ripped out from under you by pilot groups who don't give a damn. I'll be sure to give you as much support as you gave me.
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