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The Emirates Advantage… Not just subsidies

Old 04-27-2015, 07:34 PM
  #171  
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Originally Posted by PilotCrusader View Post
How many times have they been bailed out of bankruptcy?
By the US government? None.
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Old 04-27-2015, 08:42 PM
  #172  
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Originally Posted by Sink r8 View Post
As far as blacklisting goes, the abuses by the respective carriers have not been catalogued until now, and may yet be remedied/mitigated. A guy who went there before, was going for a better job. A guy who goes there in the future, assuming the allegations are validated AND not remedied, would be deliberately going to work for a company that cheats US pilot interests. Like a scab. At that point, you could reassess any official position, and blacklist if warranted.
I love how the S word gets thrown around. You actually believe me working for an airline half way around the world has one iota of influence on whether or not you have to take contract concessions?

"Oh.. but if you work there, and you do a really good job and save fuel and minimize delays you HELP a company that if it grows can compete with market share on certain routes…. well not the fat cash cow domestic market, and definitely not the Indian subcontinent or those terrorist-sounding places in the middle east, well come to think of it we are really only concerned with the premium pond crossing routes for which we offer an aging and inferior product. BUT your assistance there could be the tipping point for whether further expansion happens and then the majors here will not seek new markets but rather continue to reduce capacity to bolster profits and have to cancel those wide body orders and be even more reluctant at the next contract negotiations and perhaps even consider raising retirement age to 74. That stagnates my career and means i'll be stuck shuttling pajama and croc wearing retards from Pigsknuckle Arkansas to Hayseed Nebraska instead of going to Paris with a clutch of 50-something cat ranchers. IT'S YOUR FAULT REMOVE…. YOU DID THIS TO US… YOU'RE UN-AMERICAN.. you, you….YOU SCAB! THEY TOOK 'ER JERBS!!!!!"

Totally logical rationale, you should definitely bring it up at the next ALPA national meeting.

When you decide to return to reality you may find it a bit boring here.
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Old 04-27-2015, 09:04 PM
  #173  
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Originally Posted by PilotCrusader View Post
You guys are killing me. Aren't the US airlines technically federally assisted? How many times have they been bailed out of bankruptcy?
Federally Assisted??

Um...no.

They went bankrupt, cut their employee's pay and benefits by about 50%, flushed their employee's retirement plans, and then emerged from bankruptcy, after the EMPLOYEES had paid all of Management's over due bills.

The Federal Government sat back and watched.
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Old 04-27-2015, 11:08 PM
  #174  
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Originally Posted by Timbo View Post
Federally Assisted??

Um...no.

They went bankrupt, cut their employee's pay and benefits by about 50%, flushed their employee's retirement plans, and then emerged from bankruptcy, after the EMPLOYEES had paid all of Management's over due bills.

The Federal Government sat back and watched.
OK Idon't post here because the professional posters here (also posers) subject you to death of being pecked to death by 1000 chickens....But Chapt 11 bankruptcy is not a subsidy,,,the only party paying that are the employees, the rest get a pretty good deal...as well any guy because it could have been me amongst other reasons who went expat is not anything close to a scab..I should know, I headed up the NWA strike committee and SPC on all the "cold and prickly matters".....those who throw that around loosely really cheapen the value of real scabbing and going offshore for work is honorable,,,sometimes it raises our wages by a remote pattern bargaining dynamic.Timbo is the only Delta south pilot that gets this....Yes I said that..I say it double....most of the "Delta " guys here are over entitled yuppiescrossed with the drippings of Courtney Love and Kurt Colbain and what ran down her leg...Spackler distance thy self from me, you are a good man and need not encounter my frag pattern.
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Old 04-28-2015, 03:55 AM
  #175  
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Originally Posted by PilotCrusader View Post
You guys are killing me. Aren't the US airlines technically federally assisted? How many times have they been bailed out of bankruptcy?
Your statement is exactly backwards. The airlines assist the federal government by being taxed at a rate only the liquor and cigarette industry exceed. What kind of taxes do the middle east airlines pay?
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Old 04-28-2015, 04:20 AM
  #176  
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Originally Posted by Molon Labe View Post
OK Idon't post here because the professional posters here (also posers) subject you to death of being pecked to death by 1000 chickens....But Chapt 11 bankruptcy is not a subsidy,,,the only party paying that are the employees, the rest get a pretty good deal...as well any guy because it could have been me amongst other reasons who went expat is not anything close to a scab..I should know, I headed up the NWA strike committee and SPC on all the "cold and prickly matters".....those who throw that around loosely really cheapen the value of real scabbing and going offshore for work is honorable,,,sometimes it raises our wages by a remote pattern bargaining dynamic.Timbo is the only Delta south pilot that gets this....Yes I said that..I say it double....most of the "Delta " guys here are over entitled yuppiescrossed with the drippings of Courtney Love and Kurt Colbain and what ran down her leg...Spackler distance thy self from me, you are a good man and need not encounter my frag pattern.
Sounds like you have (barely suppressed) anger issues, and a pretty low opinion of other Delta pilots, and it sounds like you like to lump a bunch of people together.

Speaking of lumping people together...

I will agree that it was a mistake to use the S word in my post. I was not saying a guy that works for the ME3 is a scab. The point I was making is that it's legitimate to judge a person by what they do to the profession, and take a position. We do it all the time. An example of doing it incorrectly is the Comair guys petitioning their management not to hire Delta furloughees while they were hiring.

Now, if go back and read my post, I clearly state there is NOTHING wrong, dishonorable, or weird with guys having gone to the ME3 carriers. The allegations made by our carriers haven't really been tested yet, and for all I know, there will be a resolution between the various parties. At this point, the pilots are still just along for the ride.

In theory, there might be a point where there is no resolution, and you could expect a union to advocate for companies to draw distinctions between pilots that join the ME3 before the disloyal competition was highlighted, and after. That wouldn't be weird, or irrational, or unprecedented.

So yes, erdude stepped on his crank with an entitled tone, any use of the word scab to describe a ME3 pilot is completely inaccurate, and any talk of either poaching or blacklisting is way premature. But no, there wouldn't be anything weird about unions taking a position, and asking people to pick a side at some point in the future.

...

As far as your remarks on S pilots, I think you ought to man up, and apologize. Some of us sound that way on this board, but you ought to be smart enough to focus on the offense, not make blanket statements.
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Old 04-28-2015, 04:30 AM
  #177  
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Originally Posted by RemoveB4flght View Post
I love how the S word gets thrown around. You actually believe me working for an airline half way around the world has one iota of influence on whether or not you have to take contract concessions?

"Oh.. but if you work there, and you do a really good job and save fuel and minimize delays you HELP a company that if it grows can compete with market share on certain routes…. well not the fat cash cow domestic market, and definitely not the Indian subcontinent or those terrorist-sounding places in the middle east, well come to think of it we are really only concerned with the premium pond crossing routes for which we offer an aging and inferior product. BUT your assistance there could be the tipping point for whether further expansion happens and then the majors here will not seek new markets but rather continue to reduce capacity to bolster profits and have to cancel those wide body orders and be even more reluctant at the next contract negotiations and perhaps even consider raising retirement age to 74. That stagnates my career and means i'll be stuck shuttling pajama and croc wearing retards from Pigsknuckle Arkansas to Hayseed Nebraska instead of going to Paris with a clutch of 50-something cat ranchers. IT'S YOUR FAULT REMOVE…. YOU DID THIS TO US… YOU'RE UN-AMERICAN.. you, you….YOU SCAB! THEY TOOK 'ER JERBS!!!!!"

Totally logical rationale, you should definitely bring it up at the next ALPA national meeting.

When you decide to return to reality you may find it a bit boring here.
It was a mistake to use that word. I was using it as an example of categories unions might object to, not defining anyone as a scab. I also draw a distinction between guys joining a legitimate job in the past, and guys joining what might be demonstrated as a disloyal competitor in the future. I'm not sure what the future holds, but I suppose there could be a point where people don't get to play it both ways, and ALPA and the respective companies agree to either supress or recommend hiring of pilots away from the ME3. I honestly have no idea which of those it could be, if any at all. It's just naive to imagine that airlines don't make conscious decisions on hiring, or to think they don't consult with their unions on the subject, in the normal course of business.
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Old 04-28-2015, 06:52 AM
  #178  
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Originally Posted by PilotCrusader View Post
You guys are killing me. Aren't the US airlines technically federally assisted? How many times have they been bailed out of bankruptcy?

This post sounds like you have already made up your mind about this. Why don't you do your own research and get back to us with proper allegations?

No Wikipedia either
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Old 04-28-2015, 06:59 AM
  #179  
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Originally Posted by Molon Labe View Post
OK Idon't post here because the professional posters here (also posers) subject you to death of being pecked to death by 1000 chickens....But Chapt 11 bankruptcy is not a subsidy,,,the only party paying that are the employees, the rest get a pretty good deal...as well any guy because it could have been me amongst other reasons who went expat is not anything close to a scab..I should know, I headed up the NWA strike committee and SPC on all the "cold and prickly matters".....those who throw that around loosely really cheapen the value of real scabbing and going offshore for work is honorable,,,sometimes it raises our wages by a remote pattern bargaining dynamic.Timbo is the only Delta south pilot that gets this....Yes I said that..I say it double....most of the "Delta " guys here are over entitled yuppiescrossed with the drippings of Courtney Love and Kurt Colbain and what ran down her leg...Spackler distance thy self from me, you are a good man and need not encounter my frag pattern.

just when you think you can't read anything more amazing.

cue the spackler offensive in 3... 2... 1...
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Old 04-28-2015, 07:20 AM
  #180  
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Originally Posted by Sink r8 View Post
It was a mistake to use that word. I was using it as an example of categories unions might object to, not defining anyone as a scab. I also draw a distinction between guys joining a legitimate job in the past, and guys joining what might be demonstrated as a disloyal competitor in the future. I'm not sure what the future holds, but I suppose there could be a point where people don't get to play it both ways, and ALPA and the respective companies agree to either supress or recommend hiring of pilots away from the ME3. I honestly have no idea which of those it could be, if any at all. It's just naive to imagine that airlines don't make conscious decisions on hiring, or to think they don't consult with their unions on the subject, in the normal course of business.
Takes a man to admit a mistake, especially when cloaked in the anonymity of the internet.

When it comes to conscious decisions on hiring:

If ever those pilots or management appointed to a hiring committee at a US airline have contention with or hold a grudge that I or other pilots who came to the Middle East during a period of time when it was those very companies that chose to put on the street experienced human capital, and then feel that those unemployed pilots through some obscure sense of patriotism should have chosen a different career path so as not to in any small degree affect their bottom line… well I suppose they'll just have to make their decision. You'll excuse me if I'm less than apologetic to such absurdity.

When it comes to ALPA:

If they want to include as part of their lobbying efforts against the ME3 to influence airlines to unilaterally exclude from hiring any pilots who previously or are currently working for one.. Well then you have no reason to "black list"me, as I have no desire to be part (again) of such an organization which would use the careers of former members as a bargaining chip or scare tactic when their expat employment played no role in subsidies, open skies, or any other detriment (perceived or otherwise) to their membership.

I would really love a complete explanation as to how fellow pilots are the enemy and why they deserve to be punished, excluded, banned, or black listed, but I'll tell you one thing…

If management can convince unions not to hire pilots who worked a competing airline, that's a very slippery slope.
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