Frontier vs. Spirit
07-14-2015, 03:00 PM
#51
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Joined APC: Feb 2008
Position: Switch, Lever & Light Specialist
Posts: 1,065
Originally Posted by Window_Seat
Spirit, Frontier, Allegiant, Virgin America are really 3%? Nahhhhhhhhhh. Regional mentality where a successful career is based on future growth. Meanwhile, I'm sure a majority of the FO's would leave to a legacy in a heartbeat. Flying around a 220 seat 321 is pretty sweet until you find out you aren't breaking 80k a year. But that tail is so high on the walk arounds, it feels awesome!
Originally Posted by Window_Seat
Yeah, thats what I think. I'd rather see the growth in the high paying jobs at the legacies than LCC's and ULCC's putting cost pressures on the jobs that are actually desirable. I did the regional thing. It sucks but I think its short sighted to run off to an LCC for ****ty wages. When contact time comes around only willing to negotiate a rate that compares with other LCC's.
07-15-2015, 04:29 PM
#52
On Reserve
Joined APC: Mar 2015
Posts: 23
Hi Tom, I was in your boat this past January. I spoke with both and ultimately went with F9. If it helps, here were my considerations:
1) Both F9 and NKS are hiring about the same number of pilots per month, but NKS is about 50% bigger. Simple math says F9 is going to be a faster upgrade. (but they are both still WAY faster than legacies).
2) Though the airline industry as a whole is growing at the moment, the LCC's are operating more profitably and at cheaper margins, thus making them more resistant to market shocks... meaning I believe the chance of furlough is less there.
3) Despite what many may wish, the ULCC trend will, I believe, continue to take market share from the legacy carriers' domestic operations. As example, look at the European distribution of seat-sales between ULCC and their older names in the business.
4) NKS has a much better contract than F9, but I expect the latter to have a very significant compensation adjustment in their next contract (starts March 2016).
5) The pilot group at NKS and F9 is much younger and less bitter than... other larger carriers.
6) Pay is great, up to a certain dollar value. Then that "next dollar" of pay is worth less than a bit more quality of life. Find what makes you happy and choose from there.
7) Finally- and this is in hind-sight- I only had to sit reserve two months at F9 before getting a line. I'm not sure what it is at the legacies, but I imagine that's hard to beat.
This is just my opinion- hope it helps. Good luck to you.
Oh, and don't mind all the trolls here. Once you've "made it" to our career destination, sometimes there's nothing to do but complain. Some people look at the down side of everything. Stay positive
1) Both F9 and NKS are hiring about the same number of pilots per month, but NKS is about 50% bigger. Simple math says F9 is going to be a faster upgrade. (but they are both still WAY faster than legacies).
2) Though the airline industry as a whole is growing at the moment, the LCC's are operating more profitably and at cheaper margins, thus making them more resistant to market shocks... meaning I believe the chance of furlough is less there.
3) Despite what many may wish, the ULCC trend will, I believe, continue to take market share from the legacy carriers' domestic operations. As example, look at the European distribution of seat-sales between ULCC and their older names in the business.
4) NKS has a much better contract than F9, but I expect the latter to have a very significant compensation adjustment in their next contract (starts March 2016).
5) The pilot group at NKS and F9 is much younger and less bitter than... other larger carriers.
6) Pay is great, up to a certain dollar value. Then that "next dollar" of pay is worth less than a bit more quality of life. Find what makes you happy and choose from there.
7) Finally- and this is in hind-sight- I only had to sit reserve two months at F9 before getting a line. I'm not sure what it is at the legacies, but I imagine that's hard to beat.
This is just my opinion- hope it helps. Good luck to you.
Oh, and don't mind all the trolls here. Once you've "made it" to our career destination, sometimes there's nothing to do but complain. Some people look at the down side of everything. Stay positive
07-15-2015, 07:18 PM
#53
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jan 2009
Posts: 1,459
Originally Posted by JoeyMeatballs
but the only respect I need is from my daughter and wife and Spirit has allowed me to spend and enormous amount of time with them and that's what I'm concerned about, because to me that's what life's about 
07-16-2015, 04:54 AM
#54
Gets Weekends Off
Thread Starter
Joined APC: Feb 2013
Posts: 2,940
Originally Posted by Kestrel
Hi Tom, I was in your boat this past January. I spoke with both and ultimately went with F9. If it helps, here were my considerations:
1) Both F9 and NKS are hiring about the same number of pilots per month, but NKS is about 50% bigger. Simple math says F9 is going to be a faster upgrade. (but they are both still WAY faster than legacies).
2) Though the airline industry as a whole is growing at the moment, the LCC's are operating more profitably and at cheaper margins, thus making them more resistant to market shocks... meaning I believe the chance of furlough is less there.
3) Despite what many may wish, the ULCC trend will, I believe, continue to take market share from the legacy carriers' domestic operations. As example, look at the European distribution of seat-sales between ULCC and their older names in the business.
4) NKS has a much better contract than F9, but I expect the latter to have a very significant compensation adjustment in their next contract (starts March 2016).
5) The pilot group at NKS and F9 is much younger and less bitter than... other larger carriers.
6) Pay is great, up to a certain dollar value. Then that "next dollar" of pay is worth less than a bit more quality of life. Find what makes you happy and choose from there.
7) Finally- and this is in hind-sight- I only had to sit reserve two months at F9 before getting a line. I'm not sure what it is at the legacies, but I imagine that's hard to beat.
This is just my opinion- hope it helps. Good luck to you.
Oh, and don't mind all the trolls here. Once you've "made it" to our career destination, sometimes there's nothing to do but complain. Some people look at the down side of everything. Stay positive
1) Both F9 and NKS are hiring about the same number of pilots per month, but NKS is about 50% bigger. Simple math says F9 is going to be a faster upgrade. (but they are both still WAY faster than legacies).
2) Though the airline industry as a whole is growing at the moment, the LCC's are operating more profitably and at cheaper margins, thus making them more resistant to market shocks... meaning I believe the chance of furlough is less there.
3) Despite what many may wish, the ULCC trend will, I believe, continue to take market share from the legacy carriers' domestic operations. As example, look at the European distribution of seat-sales between ULCC and their older names in the business.
4) NKS has a much better contract than F9, but I expect the latter to have a very significant compensation adjustment in their next contract (starts March 2016).
5) The pilot group at NKS and F9 is much younger and less bitter than... other larger carriers.
6) Pay is great, up to a certain dollar value. Then that "next dollar" of pay is worth less than a bit more quality of life. Find what makes you happy and choose from there.
7) Finally- and this is in hind-sight- I only had to sit reserve two months at F9 before getting a line. I'm not sure what it is at the legacies, but I imagine that's hard to beat.
This is just my opinion- hope it helps. Good luck to you.
Oh, and don't mind all the trolls here. Once you've "made it" to our career destination, sometimes there's nothing to do but complain. Some people look at the down side of everything. Stay positive
07-17-2015, 11:01 PM
#55
On Reserve
Joined APC: Feb 2014
Posts: 23
I think both are great prospects. Yes, both are growing rapidly, but growth for growth's sake requires caution. Wall Street seems to be overly sensitive to capacity/demand changes, and both airlines have proved that consumers enjoy a la carte pricing structures.
Franke molded Spirit just the way he wanted- it didn't require Circle K-esque changes or draconic America West house cleaning. He sold his stake and took over F9- things seem to be getting more and more similar to the Spirit model. I feel like F9 needed drastic changes, and Franke exercised his might bringing in 3rd party agents. The dust is still airborne, but hopefully things will settle down and F9 will continue to provide it's solid product.
Can't say I'd be surprised about a F9/Spirit relationship down the road- it'd bolster F9 financially while giving Spirit a strong western footprint.
Window Seat seems to have gotten to everyone- guy was probably just having a bad day- likely went home and kicked the dog. Ultimately we're all in this industry together. Sharing our knowledge and support with each other helps us to stay informed and make smarter decisions for us and our families.
Franke molded Spirit just the way he wanted- it didn't require Circle K-esque changes or draconic America West house cleaning. He sold his stake and took over F9- things seem to be getting more and more similar to the Spirit model. I feel like F9 needed drastic changes, and Franke exercised his might bringing in 3rd party agents. The dust is still airborne, but hopefully things will settle down and F9 will continue to provide it's solid product.
Can't say I'd be surprised about a F9/Spirit relationship down the road- it'd bolster F9 financially while giving Spirit a strong western footprint.
Window Seat seems to have gotten to everyone- guy was probably just having a bad day- likely went home and kicked the dog. Ultimately we're all in this industry together. Sharing our knowledge and support with each other helps us to stay informed and make smarter decisions for us and our families.
07-18-2015, 04:49 AM
#56
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Joined APC: Jul 2015
Posts: 353
For the record...ive been here 3 and a half years (NK)....been in the left seat for almost a year and will make over 150k this year. QOL is top notch here and if your a family man its the best gig around. Highly doubt id be making this much coin at a legacy in the right seat. As far as retirement and LTD go, we desperatley need changes made in the next contract. Cant speak for f9 but upgrades at NK are still below the 3 year mark with no signs of slowing....for now
07-18-2015, 05:44 AM
#57
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Joined APC: Feb 2014
Posts: 555
Originally Posted by nkbux
For the record...ive been here 3 and a half years (NK)....been in the left seat for almost a year and will make over 150k this year. QOL is top notch here and if your a family man its the best gig around. Highly doubt id be making this much coin at a legacy in the right seat. As far as retirement and LTD go, we desperatley need changes made in the next contract. Cant speak for f9 but upgrades at NK are still below the 3 year mark with no signs of slowing....for now
FYI F9's most recent CA award went 9/2007. Still not 2-3 year mark...yet. FOs bypassing is a huge drive behind the upgrades right now.
07-18-2015, 06:23 AM
#59
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Dec 2013
Posts: 501
Originally Posted by nkbux
For the record...ive been here 3 and a half years (NK)....been in the left seat for almost a year and will make over 150k this year.
I'd equate what's going on at Frontier and Spirit to what we saw in the mid-2000s at regionals. Fast growth and folks incorrectly correlating a quick upgrade with QOL and high compensation. Obviously a fast upgrade is nice, but at a ULCC it's a necessity because the FO pay is so terrible and there really aren't any other compensation package benefits worth mentioning. At a legacy a quick upgrade is nice too, but upgrade is not a necessity to achieve a high income and retirement. Therein lies the difference.
On the other hand... The big question is how long will the pay-leaders of the industry go before their next house-cleaning. It's a crappy industry and you're rolling the dice anywhere you go.
07-18-2015, 06:29 AM
#60
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Joined APC: Dec 2009
Position: Airplane
Posts: 2,385
Originally Posted by ULLI
Nice figure. 150K comes out to be 95+ hours a month. Seems like you have to work for it to earn that much coin.
FYI F9's most recent CA award went 9/2007. Still not 2-3 year mark...yet. FOs bypassing is a huge drive behind the upgrades right now.
FYI F9's most recent CA award went 9/2007. Still not 2-3 year mark...yet. FOs bypassing is a huge drive behind the upgrades right now.
Spirit is hiring and will continue to hire for a long time. The stated goal is 300 aircraft, we're just over 80. We're not even halfway to our desired airline size. Orders are there to get us well over a hundred, so does that mean a merger? Who knows, air shows happen every year, new orders could always be announced.
The thing I like about the current ULCC situation is the opportunities that come along with growth. I have been on property a little over two years, I'm bidding in the upper 1/4 in base, every other month I'm getting my 3rd or 4th choice of line bidding. Opportunities are there to work in the training department, become a Chief Pilot or other management types. Not sure how much opportunity and advancement is left in the legacies.
Spirit is still small, has its problems, but the feel of this place is the same as I garnered from reading the book "Nuts" about the early days of Southwest. Could it happen? Who knows, it's a gamble and we'll only know it paid off when the morning of our 65th birthdays arrive. Until then, I'm enjoying the ride, enjoying the lifestyle and living it up while I'm still young enough to enjoy it.
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