Just when you thought it was over, NWA tries to put it NWA/DAL together again.
04-01-2008 | 04:21 PM
#71
Underboob King
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 4,412
Likes: 0
From: Guppy Commander
Superpilot92:
You do not know my scope position. I'm very concerned that the DAL MEC and DAL Management will end up running the show and IMHO, their management of scope has been negligent through the tenures of Giambusso, Malone and now Moak. They just don't get it and I'm not sure they even care. They only see Boeings.
I have written my Reps repeatedly on the subject and they have advised that Section 1 of the new PWA was to be a paste job. When I pointed out that the language was contradictory and had to be resolved, the subject changed to how smart the guys on the committee were - IMHO, they had no answer.This is the problem i am seeing over and over in these discussions it seems that both MEC's are being coming up very short in the INFO department. Not only on this info but on on the deal in general. You guys seem to think we want to staple your guys and we are being told you guys want to staple us
Which is it? IMHO - there is a serious disconnect between what you guys are being told and what we are being told. I would love to see the "real" deal.
ALPA seems to be spinning the political machine to say scope does not matter because fuel prices make the RJ's less efficient on a CASM basis. Scope is a HUGE issue regardless of fuel costs. I cant see how alpa is blowing off scope protection. The union guys i talk with are fully aware that scope is a huge issue and needs to be addressed. Is that point of view from the DALALPA? IF so you need to be getting EVERYONE to get on the ball and email them and tell them to stop allowing the OUTSOURCEING of our jobs!!! If you have yours or our EF&A analysis of the merger, you should see the numbers that indicate that ALPA is fully aware that the CASM on the DC9 is much worse than a CRJ200 and the CRJ700 even gives the MD88 a run for its money. These airplanes are a threat and unfortunately no one seems to be on top of the situation.
Even more, there is a pretty solid rumor that Comair is sold, contingent on a merger, with an award for more flying. In other words, Delta can get cash now for selling out some more flying, like they did for $425,000,000.00 on the sale of ASA to SkyWest. Delta would be plenty happy to get another half a billion of liquidity, get someone else to buy "obsolete" CRJ's and park DC9s and some 88's. You and I will not see that flying again until a next gen GTF 100 to 150 seat mini 787 hits the market.
Events have moved past the previous plan for the DC9's. Source would be appreciated, so we can see what your talking about? We are now hearing fuel has rendered these jets uneconomical. Delta had to go back and re-work the plan. The rumor on this side and obliquely showing up in the press is that NWA management may have approached this deal without the DC9's, generating questions about the fragmentation language in the NWA contract. That should alarm you - it scares me and I'm on the other side of the fence.
You think I'm a cooaid drinker and I admit the stuff they serve at Delta is tasty. But for you and me, I would be much more comfortable if we could get a straight answer out of our Reps about where Section 1 was headed. We are in 100% complete agreement on this and I am happy to see you come forward and acknowledge what i have been trying to say all along. We are both alpa so we are supposed to be on the same team. If this goes through we will also be co-workers and we should be working together on these issues instead of being DAL vs. NWA. Your and my jobs probably hang in the balance.
You do not know my scope position. I'm very concerned that the DAL MEC and DAL Management will end up running the show and IMHO, their management of scope has been negligent through the tenures of Giambusso, Malone and now Moak. They just don't get it and I'm not sure they even care. They only see Boeings.
I have written my Reps repeatedly on the subject and they have advised that Section 1 of the new PWA was to be a paste job. When I pointed out that the language was contradictory and had to be resolved, the subject changed to how smart the guys on the committee were - IMHO, they had no answer.This is the problem i am seeing over and over in these discussions it seems that both MEC's are being coming up very short in the INFO department. Not only on this info but on on the deal in general. You guys seem to think we want to staple your guys and we are being told you guys want to staple us
Which is it? IMHO - there is a serious disconnect between what you guys are being told and what we are being told. I would love to see the "real" deal. ALPA seems to be spinning the political machine to say scope does not matter because fuel prices make the RJ's less efficient on a CASM basis. Scope is a HUGE issue regardless of fuel costs. I cant see how alpa is blowing off scope protection. The union guys i talk with are fully aware that scope is a huge issue and needs to be addressed. Is that point of view from the DALALPA? IF so you need to be getting EVERYONE to get on the ball and email them and tell them to stop allowing the OUTSOURCEING of our jobs!!! If you have yours or our EF&A analysis of the merger, you should see the numbers that indicate that ALPA is fully aware that the CASM on the DC9 is much worse than a CRJ200 and the CRJ700 even gives the MD88 a run for its money. These airplanes are a threat and unfortunately no one seems to be on top of the situation.
Even more, there is a pretty solid rumor that Comair is sold, contingent on a merger, with an award for more flying. In other words, Delta can get cash now for selling out some more flying, like they did for $425,000,000.00 on the sale of ASA to SkyWest. Delta would be plenty happy to get another half a billion of liquidity, get someone else to buy "obsolete" CRJ's and park DC9s and some 88's. You and I will not see that flying again until a next gen GTF 100 to 150 seat mini 787 hits the market.
Events have moved past the previous plan for the DC9's. Source would be appreciated, so we can see what your talking about? We are now hearing fuel has rendered these jets uneconomical. Delta had to go back and re-work the plan. The rumor on this side and obliquely showing up in the press is that NWA management may have approached this deal without the DC9's, generating questions about the fragmentation language in the NWA contract. That should alarm you - it scares me and I'm on the other side of the fence.
You think I'm a cooaid drinker and I admit the stuff they serve at Delta is tasty. But for you and me, I would be much more comfortable if we could get a straight answer out of our Reps about where Section 1 was headed. We are in 100% complete agreement on this and I am happy to see you come forward and acknowledge what i have been trying to say all along. We are both alpa so we are supposed to be on the same team. If this goes through we will also be co-workers and we should be working together on these issues instead of being DAL vs. NWA. Your and my jobs probably hang in the balance.
Again please post some sources to your info so we can judge the info on our own. The tiring part of all this is instead of getting "real" info from anywhere its always someones interpretation of the "facts". Which is exactly why we should be comparing notes
Remember when it all comes down to it we are on the same team
04-01-2008 | 04:31 PM
#72
Can't abide NAI
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 12,078
Likes: 15
From: Douglas Aerospace post production Flight Test & Work Around Engineering bulletin dissembler
The 200 is not a threat to anything but the DC9. PM me an e-mail address and I'll send you the EF&A merger analysis. I'm not going to send you DAL web board stuff, but the Wall St. Journal article has been cited everywhere.
I don't think that anyone would buy Comair if their flying was being reduced. To get cash, Delta will have make Comair sexy and that will be at our expense, count on it. Look at SkyWest since the ASA aquisition.
Delta likes the CRJ700's and 900's a lot. They really like that other folks pay for them since Delta thinks they will be obsolete in 5 years.
I don't think that anyone would buy Comair if their flying was being reduced. To get cash, Delta will have make Comair sexy and that will be at our expense, count on it. Look at SkyWest since the ASA aquisition.
Delta likes the CRJ700's and 900's a lot. They really like that other folks pay for them since Delta thinks they will be obsolete in 5 years.
Last edited by Bucking Bar; 04-01-2008 at 04:38 PM.
04-01-2008 | 04:36 PM
#73
Works Every Weekend
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 3,506
Likes: 0
From: 737 ATL
04-01-2008 | 04:37 PM
#74
Can't abide NAI
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 12,078
Likes: 15
From: Douglas Aerospace post production Flight Test & Work Around Engineering bulletin dissembler
Again please post some sources to your info so we can judge the info on our own. The tiring part of all this is instead of getting "real" info from anywhere its always someones interpretation of the "facts". Which is exactly why we should be comparing notes Remember when it all comes down to it we are on the same team
Remember when it all comes down to it we are on the same team We have been briefed on the previous deal, but since a "disagreement" was reached we will never see the terms of the rest of the agreement. We know NWA would have been brought up to DAL's 757/767 rates plus 21%, plus the 14% 401K /B plan and the Bus probably would have ridden the wave that brings the 737-700 rate to the 800 rate which is only a couple of dollars off the 767ER rates. Then there was the equity deal which would have been 50 to 100K, depending on how they split it. All that has been posted too. But that is gone.
I have the same issue you do about the MEC not putting anything in writing. They have their sound reasons. But, the rumors that came from the NWA pilots on these boards have been mostly true, as have the Delta rumors. The Coconut Telegraph is the best source of news we have.
Last edited by Bucking Bar; 04-01-2008 at 04:50 PM.
04-01-2008 | 04:45 PM
#75
Underboob King
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 4,412
Likes: 0
From: Guppy Commander
All i am saying is i think your info you may be getting off of the DAL webboard seems pretty one sided and hopefully you are coming to your own conclusions from that info. You said yourself that the MECs arent being very upfront with any "real" info and i agree. I am sick of bs rumors we need real facts not everyones assumption of the "facts". The MEC needs to present a joint "deal" and let us view it and then discuss it. Until that happens its all BS as far as i am concerned.
04-01-2008 | 04:54 PM
#76
Can't abide NAI
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 12,078
Likes: 15
From: Douglas Aerospace post production Flight Test & Work Around Engineering bulletin dissembler
It will be history by then.
Guess it depends if you like to watch the game, or just read the score the next morning.
Guess it depends if you like to watch the game, or just read the score the next morning.
04-01-2008 | 05:02 PM
#77
Moderator
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 13,088
Likes: 0
From: B757/767
The-88 is really not that far behind those two. Anything older than a 737 is pretty much inefficient at these fuel costs. And I was also asking about his claim that the news has shown NWA has proposed a merger that did not include the DC9s. It's pure rumor.
04-01-2008 | 05:12 PM
#78
Can't abide NAI
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 12,078
Likes: 15
From: Douglas Aerospace post production Flight Test & Work Around Engineering bulletin dissembler
Johnson29:
True, and Delta is selling, parking, or otherwising disposing of up to 14 MD88's, while continuing to get new CRJ's.
Yes it is pure rumor, but I think you will hear of NWA fleet reductions within a week from now and these will play into the transition agreement.
Delta already announced their reductions, so I'm not saying we are any better.
If wrong, you can mark this post as an "I told you so."
What is happening as far as A330's or whatever growth NWA has going on? We don't know much about that.
~ not rumor ~
Delta is continuing with 777 advance entitlements in May.
True, and Delta is selling, parking, or otherwising disposing of up to 14 MD88's, while continuing to get new CRJ's.
Yes it is pure rumor, but I think you will hear of NWA fleet reductions within a week from now and these will play into the transition agreement.
Delta already announced their reductions, so I'm not saying we are any better.
If wrong, you can mark this post as an "I told you so."
What is happening as far as A330's or whatever growth NWA has going on? We don't know much about that.
~ not rumor ~
Delta is continuing with 777 advance entitlements in May.
04-01-2008 | 05:19 PM
#79
Moderator
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 13,088
Likes: 0
From: B757/767
Johnson29:
True, and Delta is selling, parking, or otherwising disposing of up to 14 MD88's, while continuing to get new CRJ's.
Yes it is pure rumor, but I think you will hear of NWA fleet reductions within a week from now and these will play into the transition agreement.
Delta already announced their reductions, so I'm not saying we are any better.
If wrong, you can mark this post as an "I told you so."
What is happening as far as A330's or whatever growth NWA has going on? We don't know much about that.
~ not rumor ~
Delta is continuing with 777 advance entitlements in May.
True, and Delta is selling, parking, or otherwising disposing of up to 14 MD88's, while continuing to get new CRJ's.
Yes it is pure rumor, but I think you will hear of NWA fleet reductions within a week from now and these will play into the transition agreement.
Delta already announced their reductions, so I'm not saying we are any better.
If wrong, you can mark this post as an "I told you so."
What is happening as far as A330's or whatever growth NWA has going on? We don't know much about that.
~ not rumor ~
Delta is continuing with 777 advance entitlements in May.
04-01-2008 | 05:33 PM
#80
Happy to be here
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 18,563
Likes: 0
From: A-320A
It is a little different this time. There is more pressure from people with bigger sticks that either union.
It will get done if they want it to get done. If the costs are to much to make the merger happen it will not. I would guess that we will be put on a very short time line to get things done. Not sure if we are there yet, but I feel it may be coming.
It will get done if they want it to get done. If the costs are to much to make the merger happen it will not. I would guess that we will be put on a very short time line to get things done. Not sure if we are there yet, but I feel it may be coming.
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