Just when you thought it was over, NWA tries to put it NWA/DAL together again.
04-07-2008 | 12:08 PM
#111
Can't abide NAI
Joined: Jun 2007
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From: Douglas Aerospace post production Flight Test & Work Around Engineering bulletin dissembler
~~~ Third hand hearsay warning ~~~
The final round of negotiations went something like this, as I have been told.
The NWA pilots wanted to protect NWA retirement slots. They proposed a dynamic seniority concept, by which NWA slots vacated could only be filled by NWA pilots and they changed the ratios used for current integration.
However, the NWA side did not have the computer model to actually evaluate their proposal.
The Delta pilots ran the numbers, per the NWA proposal, and learned that the NWA proposal was actually more favorable to the Delta pilots than Delta's relative seniority proposal. Delta was in substantially in agreement with the NWA proposal and the rumor went around that an agreement had been reached.
When the NWA pilots recieved Delta's evaluation, the NWA representatives reneged on their own proposal and went back to the their opener proposal. Delta took the position of "no backing up" and negotiations stopped.
~~~ Third hand hearsay warning ~~~
04-07-2008 | 12:09 PM
#112
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Gets Weekends Off
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From: 765-A
There isn't a Delta pilot who doesn't know what Dalpa's position on the merged seniority lists is. The guiding principles are that 1) there should be no "bump", no "flush" (i.e. you should be able to retain your current seat if you desire and there should be no massive rebid of the system) and 2) the lists should be blended by relative senioirity (i.e. if you were 40% from the bottom of your airline's list, you should be 40% from the bottom of the combined list. If you were 15% from the top of your airline's list, you should be 15% from the top of the merged list, etc.). The Dalpa reps have made themselves available in a number of venues and have been as open as Disclosure rules allow them to be.
The real question to be asked is how come the NWA pilots seem to know so little about the plan of their MEC (or perhaps that should be plan(s) since there seems to be several versions). Maybe a better question is how come the NWA pilots aren't demanding to know from their Reps how they are being represented. As a Delta pilot, it's likely none of my business what merger goals the NWA MEC have, but I find it worrisome that the NWA pilots don't seem to know. Trust me, I participate in plenty of cockpit banter debating the merits of DALPA policy, but I will freely admit that my reps have always fielded my calls, emails, and stood up in lounge shows. An NWA pilot should not be on this forum asking what his own MEC's integration philosophy is....perhaps they should be on the phone or writing a few Emails.
The real question to be asked is how come the NWA pilots seem to know so little about the plan of their MEC (or perhaps that should be plan(s) since there seems to be several versions). Maybe a better question is how come the NWA pilots aren't demanding to know from their Reps how they are being represented. As a Delta pilot, it's likely none of my business what merger goals the NWA MEC have, but I find it worrisome that the NWA pilots don't seem to know. Trust me, I participate in plenty of cockpit banter debating the merits of DALPA policy, but I will freely admit that my reps have always fielded my calls, emails, and stood up in lounge shows. An NWA pilot should not be on this forum asking what his own MEC's integration philosophy is....perhaps they should be on the phone or writing a few Emails.
We know what the NWA merger policy is. It's the same fluf that you state as being the DAL merger policy. From what we understand, we wanted a dynamic seniority list, which is a new concept that was offered by someone who wasn't even part of the merger committee of MEC.
True, with it being so new, they probably didn't know the full ramifications of the concept.
The questions that are out there;
1. What was the last position that the NWA MEC offered?
2. If it was so bad for NWA pilots, why are DAL pilots so up in arms?
While I appreciate you telling NWA pilots that we should demand more information of our reps, I will question why you think we haven't and why you think that we don't have any information?
We know they screwed up. They told us in a long letter. But, we also know that once they realized it (or were shown by your committee), they refused to screw our junior guys.
That's fine by me. Our guys are human and they make mistakes. The real test of a person is if they continue to push a mistake just to save face.
Anyway, care to answer questions #1 and #2?
04-07-2008 | 12:25 PM
#113
Can't abide NAI
Joined: Jun 2007
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From: Douglas Aerospace post production Flight Test & Work Around Engineering bulletin dissembler
1. See my post;
2. See my post. NWA reneged on their own offer and demands arbitration.
The Delta pilots do not want arbitration because they think they have the pay, working conditions, fleet, growth and better bases. Any meeting in the middle is going to be less than the DAL pilots already have.
Apparently not rumor - Delta MEC authorizing trip drops for Strike Preparedness Committee members and permits have been requested for picketing. Maybe both MEC's preparing for organized resistance.
Worst scenario - "merger lite" and whipsaw. ALPA has lost its way on scope. I'm not convinced that ALPA has enough CCC structure to avoid the garbage that has gone on at DCI up at mainline.
2. See my post. NWA reneged on their own offer and demands arbitration.
The Delta pilots do not want arbitration because they think they have the pay, working conditions, fleet, growth and better bases. Any meeting in the middle is going to be less than the DAL pilots already have.
Apparently not rumor - Delta MEC authorizing trip drops for Strike Preparedness Committee members and permits have been requested for picketing. Maybe both MEC's preparing for organized resistance.
Worst scenario - "merger lite" and whipsaw. ALPA has lost its way on scope. I'm not convinced that ALPA has enough CCC structure to avoid the garbage that has gone on at DCI up at mainline.
04-07-2008 | 12:34 PM
#114
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Mar 2008
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From: 737 Capt
04-07-2008 | 12:51 PM
#116
Can't abide NAI
Joined: Jun 2007
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From: Douglas Aerospace post production Flight Test & Work Around Engineering bulletin dissembler
What do the NWA pilots think about trying to kill this deal? Much support for legal job action, or do they want the merger?
04-07-2008 | 12:57 PM
#117
Happy to be here
Joined: Jun 2006
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From: A-320A
If we think think past the turf war, this deal would give long term stability to our jobs.
I guess until they start putting people on the street because of our losses, no one will see that.
Some pay, and seniority is better than none.
Just wish that they would start charging what it actually costs to fly. It is not like SWA can fly all of them
I guess until they start putting people on the street because of our losses, no one will see that.
Some pay, and seniority is better than none.
Just wish that they would start charging what it actually costs to fly. It is not like SWA can fly all of them
04-07-2008 | 01:07 PM
#118
Thread Starter
Gets Weekends Off
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From: 765-A
1. See my post;
2. See my post. NWA reneged on their own offer and demands arbitration.
The Delta pilots do not want arbitration because they think they have the pay, working conditions, fleet, growth and better bases. Any meeting in the middle is going to be less than the DAL pilots already have.
Apparently not rumor - Delta MEC authorizing trip drops for Strike Preparedness Committee members and permits have been requested for picketing. Maybe both MEC's preparing for organized resistance.
Worst scenario - "merger lite" and whipsaw. ALPA has lost its way on scope. I'm not convinced that ALPA has enough CCC structure to avoid the garbage that has gone on at DCI up at mainline.
2. See my post. NWA reneged on their own offer and demands arbitration.
The Delta pilots do not want arbitration because they think they have the pay, working conditions, fleet, growth and better bases. Any meeting in the middle is going to be less than the DAL pilots already have.
Apparently not rumor - Delta MEC authorizing trip drops for Strike Preparedness Committee members and permits have been requested for picketing. Maybe both MEC's preparing for organized resistance.
Worst scenario - "merger lite" and whipsaw. ALPA has lost its way on scope. I'm not convinced that ALPA has enough CCC structure to avoid the garbage that has gone on at DCI up at mainline.
We are in agreement as to what we think happened. (Which is a surprise)
But, as far as question #2, what do you think the NWA MEC should have done? What would you have wanted your MEC to do? Screw you just to save face?
The questions came about because one of you said that you would rather go to arbitration before accepting the NWA groups offer?
I am just wondering why? Especially if you don't know what the last offer was.
04-07-2008 | 01:18 PM
#119
Can't abide NAI
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 12,078
Likes: 15
From: Douglas Aerospace post production Flight Test & Work Around Engineering bulletin dissembler
I think we'd take the NWA final offer... but that is just one guy's opinion. I liked the "Fair Plan" posted here and on Flightinfo, but I do not know why neither MEC did.
Looks like the fight's on. SPC getting spun up, picketing permits getting going.... where's the inflatable rat?
Unfortunately, I'm not joking. See you on the picket line. First beer is on me. Walking in circles is thirsty work.
Looks like the fight's on. SPC getting spun up, picketing permits getting going.... where's the inflatable rat?
Unfortunately, I'm not joking. See you on the picket line. First beer is on me. Walking in circles is thirsty work.
04-07-2008 | 01:36 PM
#120
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 1,166
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From: 737 Capt
On another note, I flew with a guy who had DS on his jumpseat a couple weeks ago. At least from what was said the end product is about $1B savings when operating as a combined carrier. If this number is correct I can certainly see why the managements of both airlines would want it.
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