If you know what their policy is, then I urge you to reread post #99 and #101 of this thread where both you and SuperPilot are asking DAL pilots what the NWA proposals are (a bizarre request if I've ever heard one)

There's no fluff about the Delta plan. You tell me where you fall on the NWA list, and I will tell you exactly where you will fall on the combined list. I'm not saying that NWA pilots will like that concept, but it's very concrete. Now how 'bout you tell me where I will fall on the combined list under NWA's plan.....and the answer is that you have no idea.

Again, why are you coming on a public forum and asking DAL pilots what the NWA proposals are if you feel that you understand them?

I don't know. Perhaps the DAL negotating committee is really trying to find a fair solution here and didn't want the NWA side to trip over their own feet. I freely admit that the following is strictly second hand rumor, but from what I have heard, the Delta side has been flabbergasted as the disorganization of the NWA side in these talks. Again, I admit that's second hand information, but since I'm far from the first person to bring that up, you have to wonder about the whole "where there's smoke, there's fire" concept.

See your question #1 above.....you either don't know what your position is or you're really good at keeping secrets.

Well I suppose it's a bonus that they admit their mistakes, but it's not exactly encouraging


Look, I'm not here to debate the relative merits of the combined seniority list on this forum. It's not very productive and in the end it probably only creates friction between two groups who may have to fly with eachother. As line pilots, I think the best we should do is give guidance to our ALPA reps about what we want out of it and in return we need to stay informed and engaged with where our MEC and Negotiating Committee are headed.

I was simply responding to questions earlier in this thread where NWA pilots were asking what their committee's proposal was. I'm just getting the feeling that the NWA pilots don't know the plans because the NWA Neg. Committee isn't quite sure of them either.

 

Our NWA mec has not published anything official about what was proposed. It is all rumors and speculation at this point. With things heating up it might be beneficial to both groups to work on a happy medium. I was hired in '96 at NWA and I do not expect DOH and the sentiments seems to be the same amongst my peers that I've talked with. For what it's worth.

The combined company would have 7B in cash. How much is stability worth?

 

more than a few years seniority at a bankrupt carrier IMHO

 

I would agree with that and I'm willing to put up with some short term turmoil for the potential of stability (I say potential because I've learned to never put the phrases 'airline career' and 'stability' together). Furthermore, if you believe that 'Merger mania' is inevitable, then I think it's better to be proactive and choose you're partner rather than being reactive and settling for the leftovers late at night. The latter being my general approach in my single days at the O'club on Friday nights which produced some colorful but, in the end, rather embarrasing results.

However, I have two concerns:

1) I think it would be a shame if we left money and contract improvements on the table because we were unable to agree earlier and now we face the potential of having it rammed down our throats (and I say that without assessing any blame for why we couldn't come to an agreement). In fact, considering some of the givebacks we made, I think we should have been asking for more.

2) I think arbitration is always a mistake. It is far better to come to a negotiated agreement than to take it out of our hands and roll the dice with someone who may come up with something neither side expected.

 

DelDah Capt,

I think this is a case where you are inserting your position in the middle of a conversation without having the benefit of knowing what the conversation was really about.

Super and I were not asking DAL pilots what our MEC's last position was so we could find out information. We were asking because one of your fellow DAL pilots was sure he wanted no part of what our MEC's last "table position" was. He said he would rather go to arbitration than take that position.

If you want to go citing post numbers it would be helpful for you to start from the beginning. It's #96. Here's what George (Apparently a DAL pilot) said....


"I would prefer arbitration over NWA's last table position. I am sure however the NWA pilots might prefer arbitration over Delta's last table position. The arbitrator has to apply ALPA's merger policy in constructing a seniority list. It would be wise for all pilots both NWA and DALPA to review that policy.
George"



As I said later, Question #2 has to do with why a DAL pilot would be so set against the last NWA proposal was if he didn't know what it was? Escecially if the rumors are true that our committee made an offer that would have screwed our junior pilots.

As far is there being no fluf in your plan, that's not what I said. I said our (the NWA) plan was just as fluffy as yours. There are no specifics. If you can tell me for sure that the DAL proposal was that my relative seniority at NWA is where I would fall on the combined list, then fine, that is concrete.

But, for some reason, I dont think that was the case. There were more factors being brought up from both sides that would have skewed the list. That's why the last proposal was withdrawn. The ratios were skewed too far towards the DAL side so that our junior guys got screwed. Which led me to ask, it that was the case, why are DAL guys so unhappy with the last NWA position?

IYou want me to guess where you would fall on the combined seniority list NWA style? You are absolutely right, I am not sure. Because I can't say for sure what their last proposal was. But from the information I have seen, neither can you. So don't put yourself out there and say for sure that DAL's proposal was that NWA pilots would wind up with the same relative seniority without factoring in:

1. Relaitive pay increases
2. Widebody flying
3. Future aircraft orders

Which may be the reason why our Merger Committee came up with the concept of "Premium International Flying."

As for your final statement, our Merger Commitee plans are to protect the seniority of ALL NWA pilots. Even if they have to admit that they made a mistake. That's fine by me.

Now that you are caught up Captain, welcome to the jist of the full conversation. Maybe now you can answer the questions.

New K Now

 

The Delta opener is well know. Here is a portion of a letter form our MEC chairmen.

In a traditional merger scenario, it is common for each Merger Committee to enter negotiations in a very adversarial role with negotiating positions that are very far apart as they posture for the benefit of their pilot group. In a successful negotiation, over time, both parties will find common ground and reach a solution that represents a compromise between the two positions. Almost always, however, the process ends in an abdication of leadership and subsequent binding arbitration.
We were not, however, in a traditional merger scenario. We were breaking new ground and held before us a unique opportunity, but the window for that opportunity was narrow and not able to accommodate either the lengthy timeline or the adversarial relationship of the traditional approach. With that in mind, we approached the negotiating table not at an extreme, but in the middle; not adversarial, but cooperative. We presented a rational and fair integration method that would have provided all pilots of the merged corporation with a post-merger relative seniority very close to that of their respective pre-merger relative positions and included an innovative method of preserving premium flying positions for both pilot groups going forward many years. The other committee took a different approach.

Our reps stated that the combined list had all pilots at both airlines within half a percent of their premerger seniority. As far as the NWA opener I don't know what it was. I do know however that it moved me down almost 19% percent from my current seniority. This came straight from someone involved in the process. All of this is from the openers. There was movement on both sides before the process was ended so no one knows where each side ended.

 

Then why did your Reps kill the deal?

 

Because they represent the whole group, and only a few vocal ones are hear. Voice you opinions and call your reps daily. It is what I do. Squeaky wheel gets the grease.
Do not expect them to represent your opinion if you do not make it heard.

 

Bar,

Doesn't your earlier post explain why? Their offer would have been unfavorable to the junior NWA pilots. Your guys took the no backing up position and that was that.

If that's what happened then the blame should be shared. seems as though we will have to work together at some point. It might as well be sooner rather than later. (The sentiment hold true for all purposes)

 

This can be beneficial to us all if done properly. The last thing we need is to merge and stay separate only to have mgmt try and play us against each other. Mgmt wants us to fight against each other to keep us from fighting them to get what we deserve as 1 solid pilot group!