Just when you thought it was over, NWA tries to put it NWA/DAL together again.
04-07-2008 | 08:15 AM
#101
Thread Starter
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 6,844
Likes: 0
From: 765-A
I would prefer arbitration over NWA's last table position. I am sure however the NWA pilots might prefer arbitration over Delta's last table position. The arbitrator has to apply ALPA's merger policy in constructing a seniority list. It would be wise for all pilots both NWA and DALPA to review that policy.
George
George
What was NWA's last "table position?"
Edit: Ok. Looks like I asked a repeat question that my bud Superpilot already asked. But, I think I can let it stand because it was never answered.
The last I heard was that once the NWA MEC realized that the junior NWA pilots would have gotten screwed by the ratios as they were set up they had to change their position.
So I guess DAL pilots want us to go back to the position that would have screwed our junior pilots?
What happened to "no windfalls?"
Just a question for you guys. Is it even remotely possible in your minds that your (DAL) MEC was asking for too much and that the NWA MEC was behaving more fairly?
I will admit that for me, either scenario is possible. I dont know until I know. You guys seem to know to the point that you would "bet the farm" on it. Why?
Last edited by newKnow; 04-07-2008 at 08:32 AM.
04-07-2008 | 08:18 AM
#102
Looking for a laugh
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 4,099
Likes: 0
What exactly was NWA's last table position? I would like to hear about it, not a rumor of what it was or someone else's interpretation of it. Do you have any factual info on each sides "offers"? I ask this because i havent seen anything and everything i have heard is the exact opposite of what the DAL guys are being told. It gets old seeing that you guys think we want to staple you and we are being told you want to staple us. Which is it? I dont know, as far as i know no one has seen the "real" deal. Until i see it as a published deal and we are supposed to vote on it then its all interpretations of the "deal". Both MECs have kept very quiet on the the actual offers and it would be nice to see more from both MECs presenting info together so we know its really whats being discussed.
I have to agree with you Superpilot. All we are doing is arguing about rumor. Until the respective MECs release their table positions, it's all hersay. Unfortunately I don't think that they will in the near future. To do so would paint them into a corner concerning new negotiations as whatever they put out now becomes their starting point.
04-07-2008 | 08:41 AM
#103
Underboob King
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 4,412
Likes: 0
From: Guppy Commander
There has not been a single table position from either side that advocated a staple I didnt mean a real staple job i was just using that to make a point. Both groups are being told opposing stories is what i am getting at.. Delta's opening position is well know and was put out in a print. It was a basic ratio that kept all pilots at both airlines within half a percent of their pre merger seniority. It included protections for NWA 747 flying however how that would have worked was not out in print.
NWA table positions have not been in print that I have seen. I based my choice on arbitration by talking with a several repsAs you should, but i have done the same and can tell you your views based on your reps info is different that what I have been told.. All gave me about the same info on where I would slot in on the NWA list. The rumors were that NWA opened for a list that was worse then DOH for the Delta pilots. That is a rumor only since NWA did not put out their opening position. Again rumors are pointless. I want to see something in print signed by both MECs that says Here It Is. Then and only then will we know the "real" deal. Rumors, interpretations and info put out by DALALPA and NWAALPA are great but are far from mutual information.
The difference on why one airline would prefer Arbitration over the other airline is quite simple. The airline that has had the most advancement always has more to lose then the airline with less advancement. Its kind of like going in for your flight physical, there is no way you can win, the best you can do is break even.
On the AA/AWA merger if you have not read the arbitrator decision you should take the time to read it. Its long but interesting. He believes he followed ALPA merger policy and explains his reasoning. The first 500 slots all went to USAIR before the first AWA pilot went on the list so it was not all one sided.
George
NWA table positions have not been in print that I have seen. I based my choice on arbitration by talking with a several repsAs you should, but i have done the same and can tell you your views based on your reps info is different that what I have been told.. All gave me about the same info on where I would slot in on the NWA list. The rumors were that NWA opened for a list that was worse then DOH for the Delta pilots. That is a rumor only since NWA did not put out their opening position. Again rumors are pointless. I want to see something in print signed by both MECs that says Here It Is. Then and only then will we know the "real" deal. Rumors, interpretations and info put out by DALALPA and NWAALPA are great but are far from mutual information.
The difference on why one airline would prefer Arbitration over the other airline is quite simple. The airline that has had the most advancement always has more to lose then the airline with less advancement. Its kind of like going in for your flight physical, there is no way you can win, the best you can do is break even.
On the AA/AWA merger if you have not read the arbitrator decision you should take the time to read it. Its long but interesting. He believes he followed ALPA merger policy and explains his reasoning. The first 500 slots all went to USAIR before the first AWA pilot went on the list so it was not all one sided.
George
04-07-2008 | 08:47 AM
#104
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 20,839
Likes: 160
I would point out that it was Delta committe who found the flaws for the junior NWA pilots They had good software in place and quickly modeled the NWA proposal, something the NWA committee had failed to do. Those involved felt the NWA committee showed up without proper preparation and this slowed and hindered the process. I understand the committee chair was removed at some point perhaps for this reason.
04-07-2008 | 09:15 AM
#105
Thread Starter
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 6,844
Likes: 0
From: 765-A
I would point out that it was Delta committe who found the flaws for the junior NWA pilots They had good software in place and quickly modeled the NWA proposal, something the NWA committee had failed to do. Those involved felt the NWA committee showed up without proper preparation and this slowed and hindered the process. I understand the committee chair was removed at some point perhaps for this reason.
04-07-2008 | 10:00 AM
#107
Thread Starter
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 6,844
Likes: 0
From: 765-A
I guess the answer is that no one on this board really knows.
But, the feeling is that it was going to be bad for the junior NWA pilots.
But, if that's the case, why were the DAL pilots so set against it and our Negotiating Committee? They were the ones who were going to make a killing.
I think its more of a case of their DAL MEC telling them to scream and holler bloody murder and them asking, how loud, without asking why?
New K Now
But, the feeling is that it was going to be bad for the junior NWA pilots.
But, if that's the case, why were the DAL pilots so set against it and our Negotiating Committee? They were the ones who were going to make a killing.
I think its more of a case of their DAL MEC telling them to scream and holler bloody murder and them asking, how loud, without asking why?
New K Now
04-07-2008 | 10:41 AM
#108
Happy to be here
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 18,563
Likes: 0
From: A-320A
In addition to this there are many thing that USAir East did not bring to the arbitrator. Three things in fact.
It may have swayed the decision a little. Fact is that given the data that he had, the arbitrator probably made the best call.
If this happens at DAL I think that the DAL position offered is better than what the arbitrator will come up with. Well at least for the most senior NWA gentleman.
It may have swayed the decision a little. Fact is that given the data that he had, the arbitrator probably made the best call.
If this happens at DAL I think that the DAL position offered is better than what the arbitrator will come up with. Well at least for the most senior NWA gentleman.
04-07-2008 | 11:37 AM
#109
Line Holder
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 522
Likes: 5
There isn't a Delta pilot who doesn't know what Dalpa's position on the merged seniority lists is. The guiding principles are that 1) there should be no "bump", no "flush" (i.e. you should be able to retain your current seat if you desire and there should be no massive rebid of the system) and 2) the lists should be blended by relative senioirity (i.e. if you were 40% from the bottom of your airline's list, you should be 40% from the bottom of the combined list. If you were 15% from the top of your airline's list, you should be 15% from the top of the merged list, etc.). The Dalpa reps have made themselves available in a number of venues and have been as open as Disclosure rules allow them to be.
The real question to be asked is how come the NWA pilots seem to know so little about the plan of their MEC (or perhaps that should be plan(s) since there seems to be several versions). Maybe a better question is how come the NWA pilots aren't demanding to know from their Reps how they are being represented. As a Delta pilot, it's likely none of my business what merger goals the NWA MEC have, but I find it worrisome that the NWA pilots don't seem to know. Trust me, I participate in plenty of cockpit banter debating the merits of DALPA policy, but I will freely admit that my reps have always fielded my calls, emails, and stood up in lounge shows. An NWA pilot should not be on this forum asking what his own MEC's integration philosophy is....perhaps they should be on the phone or writing a few Emails.
The real question to be asked is how come the NWA pilots seem to know so little about the plan of their MEC (or perhaps that should be plan(s) since there seems to be several versions). Maybe a better question is how come the NWA pilots aren't demanding to know from their Reps how they are being represented. As a Delta pilot, it's likely none of my business what merger goals the NWA MEC have, but I find it worrisome that the NWA pilots don't seem to know. Trust me, I participate in plenty of cockpit banter debating the merits of DALPA policy, but I will freely admit that my reps have always fielded my calls, emails, and stood up in lounge shows. An NWA pilot should not be on this forum asking what his own MEC's integration philosophy is....perhaps they should be on the phone or writing a few Emails.
04-07-2008 | 12:07 PM
#110
Underboob King
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 4,412
Likes: 0
From: Guppy Commander
There isn't a Delta pilot who doesn't know what Dalpa's position on the merged seniority lists is. The guiding principles are that 1) there should be no "bump", no "flush" (i.e. you should be able to retain your current seat if you desire and there should be no massive rebid of the system) and 2) the lists should be blended by relative senioirity (i.e. if you were 40% from the bottom of your airline's list, you should be 40% from the bottom of the combined list. If you were 15% from the top of your airline's list, you should be 15% from the top of the merged list, etc.).I do know that the NWA MEC wants to protect career expectations based on seniority numbers. What does that exactly mean, I wont pretend to know the "facts" but 10% of the bottom of DAL is not the same as 10% from the bottom at NWA as far as career expectations are concerned. The Dalpa reps have made themselves available in a number of venues and have been as open as Disclosure rules allow them to be.
The real question to be asked is how come the NWA pilots seem to know so little about the plan of their MEC (or perhaps that should be plan(s) since there seems to be several versions). Maybe a better question is how come the NWA pilots aren't demanding to know from their Reps how they are being represented. As a Delta pilot, it's likely none of my business what merger goals the NWA MEC have, but I find it worrisome that the NWA pilots don't seem to know. Trust me, I participate in plenty of cockpit banter debating the merits of DALPA policy, but I will freely admit that my reps have always fielded my calls, emails, and stood up in lounge shows. An NWA pilot should not be on this forum asking what his own MEC's integration philosophy is....perhaps they should be on the phone or writing a few Emails.
The real question to be asked is how come the NWA pilots seem to know so little about the plan of their MEC (or perhaps that should be plan(s) since there seems to be several versions). Maybe a better question is how come the NWA pilots aren't demanding to know from their Reps how they are being represented. As a Delta pilot, it's likely none of my business what merger goals the NWA MEC have, but I find it worrisome that the NWA pilots don't seem to know. Trust me, I participate in plenty of cockpit banter debating the merits of DALPA policy, but I will freely admit that my reps have always fielded my calls, emails, and stood up in lounge shows. An NWA pilot should not be on this forum asking what his own MEC's integration philosophy is....perhaps they should be on the phone or writing a few Emails.
Thread
Thread Starter
Forum
Replies
Last Post
