Based on the EXTREMELY bad situation with the USAIR East vs. West seniority,
I am guessing that ALPA national is VERY concerned that they have a "happy" pilot group if DA and NWA merge.

BOTH sides have seen their careers flushed down the toilet in different ways. And, BOTH sides have valid points in their arguments about the merger. ALPA is caught right in the middle and they know that "Total War" could be building if ONE side, or BOTH sides feel cheated in this merger.

I could be dead wrong, but I suspect that SOME PILOTS are going to get the shaft on BOTH sides of the merger. ALPA national is going to have to decide who and, what will least likely impact the unions future.

Is it going to be Total War like East/West? Or, a moderate percentage of pilots at both DA and NWA. The latter seems most likely.

I don't understand your thinking here. If the old man is 1400 at NWA with say 5000 guys he is in the top 28% of the list. 28% of the Delta list means he'd integrate near the #1960 guy at Delta (say 7000 pilots). Who cares what that guys DOH is? If they did relative seniority he would be 3360 out of 12000 guys. He'll still in the top 28% of the new list with potentially more aircraft/routes/money/bases to bid for. How has his QOL taken a hit?

Yep what he said. Take the argument to the extreme and it will make sense. Lets say two companies combine and one has 10000 pilots and one has 100 pilots. Should the number 100 guy at the smaller airline be equal to the number 100 guy at the bigger airline?

Relative seniority that keeps QOL, with no bump or flush is the only way you are going to get the majority of guys to go along.

That is just the way it is.

And before someone from the NW side jumps all over my ass, since I am a newhire at Delta, DOH would PERSONALLY profit me more. All the NW newhires would be behind me and thus I would have a higher number on the end list. I am personally arguing that what is less profitable for me is still more fair to more people. Sure lots of guys will get screwed, probably myself with any furlough, but it is the only way that we will be able to get along for the long term.

slinky

AV8ER13,

I'm going to repost my 'possible' merger scenarios again for clarity:


Within the past week, the 'time pressure' on this merger has been increased. The pressures are both economic and political. Oil is out of control, airlines are failing, and the economy is in the tanks. The Delta board is being told that this needs to happen now if either company is going to survive. Furthermore, if they want the help of the more business friendly government, they better start the process now because no one knows who will be in power come November. Because of these time pressures, my Option A is off the table. They are not going to wait around for the pilots to sort things out.

The easiest thing for Delta management to do is just start the merger process without the pilots and not spend any money on new pay and benefits package for them. This is Option B and truth be told, neither the DAL nor NWA pilots could do anything about it. Under this scenario, neither pilot group gets any improvements, they still have an acrimonious seniority list battle to face, and management is left with two ticked off groups.

For whatever reason, DAL management is wary of this.....and make no mistake, for better or worse, it is the DAL management in Atlanta that will be left in charge of this mess. The NWA management has one foot out the door and has cut their pilots loose. The only thing the NWA mangement is hanging around for is their 'Going Away' bonuses. The DAL MEC has spent considerable time, even before this merger was even thought up, convincing DAL management that the pilots will play a role in a merger. I'm not sure if they even have any right or power to demand a role in this, but it's clear they convinced Delta that they did since they were even able to negotiate contract improvements as part of the initial attempt to merge....that whole process was precedent setting. Even if DAL doesn't want to let the pilots have a role, they are looking at the debacle occuring at USair where 3 years after the merger announcement, they are still no closer to a merged operation.

So how does DAL management start the merger ball rolling under the time pressure while trying to get the two pilot groups to come together amicably? Well, apparently they're considering starting the merger process with the government while operting the two airlines seperately under a holding company. This allows them to get things started and take advantage of some of the efficiences. Meanwhile, they negotiate a new pay/work rule/equity package with the DAL pilots and use it as a carrot for the NWA side of the house. They tell the NWA pilots that they will receive the exact same improved package when they come to an agreement on a new List with the DAL pilots. The word is that the NWA pilots have nothing in their contract to stop this. There is no need for DAL management to ask them for anything. However, DAL pilots do have contract language that would stop this. So, if DAL management wants to try this 'Carrot/stick' approach, they have to negotiate with the DAL pilots. This gives the DAL pilots leverage to demand a better 'goodies' package and it also allows them to keep protections that would prevent whipsawing of the two groups.

In the end, the NWA pilots have no way to prevent either of the two scenarios on the table. Further, they have no relationship with the surviving management group and the surviving management group has no need or desire to negotiate with them. To be brutally honest, the NWA pilots have really run out of options. If management decides to force a merger, both pilot groups lose and get nothing in return. If they go with the other option, the DAL pilots can try to get something in return and the NWA pilots will get the same deal as soon as a list is agreed to. Further, the NWA pilots still have a say in the merged list, but they will have to negotiate with the DAL pilots.....about the only thing they likely lose is the ability to demand arbitration.

That's why I say that NWA is lacking in leverage. Of course none of the above is written anywhere offically and it's all conjecture on my part. Further, I reiterate that I would not be comfortable with the "Carrot/Stick" approach at least until I get more information. However, if you can show me where NWA pilots have some leverage or even someone in the new management who's williing to listen to them, I'd be glad to hear about it.

#1000 at Delta was hired in 87. #1400 was hired in 88. Even with a relative seniority merger you father would be in at the top of 12000 pilots. The proposal that I heard from NWA was top 2000 NWA at the top of the list, and bottom 2000 DAL pilots to the bottom of the list. That deal is definitely a non-starter. What deal did you hear?

I believe you're hearing some spin. I heard that relative seniority was all agreed upon except for the botom 700-1000. That's because DAL hired close to 700 in the past year and a half and NWA has not. So some guy coming off NWA furlough (with over 4 years DOH would be equal to some one at the botom of the DAL list). This causes problems in the event of a reduction in flying where someone at NWA with a DOH of Sept 2001 could be furloughed before a DAL pilot with a DOH of Jan 2007. Obviously that wouldn't be fair. So the bottom of the list would have to be shuffled 1:1. I'm not sure why we both can't figure out an equitable way to protect the junior and allow the senior to move forward according to relative seniority

Not 1:1 but DOH for the bottom of the list. We hired before you. Lots more. 1:1 would leave all of your new hires over a year more senior that the guys that came in last week.
Not going to fly at 1:1

If those were the terms, then as a Delta new hire I would agree to the deal. I don't think the proposal from NWA was anything near that. I could be wrong about the top 2000. It may be more like 1000. But I definitely heard the bottom 2000 Delta pilots would go to the bottom of the list. I would agree that any hires after 9/11 should be DOH.

I don't know of any airline that bids by DOH - it is irrelevant. You bid by relative seniority, which in a single airline more or less mirrors DOH. Since there is no national senority list your father is not losing any seniority if he is in the same position post merger as pre merger. If he is at 20% prior to the merger and 20% post merger he is in the same position but will now have more options. It is true that his % will not change as much for each NW pilot retirement, and this is a % degredation, but he will move up one number for each retirement. The NW position seems to be that they don't think the DAL pilots should also move up one number for each pilot retirement. Just like NW guys get a much higher % of a pay raise. Since NW guys don't want to give up their % benefit in pilot retirements should DAL pilots demand a higher payscale? Under this scenario DAL pilots should always get paid more than the NW pilots because we came into the deal with higher payrates. This uses the NW logic and I think it is incorrect - once we merge NW no longer exists - we need to be united as one pilot group vs. management.
Scoop

Moonshot, Ask your father what his unions proposel was for the Republic/NWA merger since he was there for that merger. I find it interesting he would now argue DOH when then the NWA MEC argued a ratio by equipment. As I mentioned in another post the DOH/Ratio arguement always comes down to the same thing. Which benefits you the most. If the situation were reversed and NWA had grown faster they would be asking for a ratio and Delta would be asking for DOH. It never changes and its always the same arguement.