Not Exactly Eye-Watering
07-06-2008, 10:28 AM
#301
Underboob King
Joined APC: May 2005
Position: Guppy Commander
Posts: 4,412
Originally Posted by Justdoinmyjob
Actually, there is a part of LOA 19 which prohibits the company from doing exactly that.
My feeling is that if (and it's a big if,) the DL side turns this down, all RA has to do is offer the NW side LOA 19 too, just change some wording. Now, were both on the same payscale, (there's the parity,) but no JCBA until LOA 19 expires. The SLI would still be completed, just not implemented until a JCBA is ratified. It is an end around of the NO voters. It will not and cannot stop the SLI, but puts us all at a disadvantage against management til we can get a JCBA. It does however, sow the seeds for problems down the road.
What's driving the NO vote is fear of the unknown. Will the -9s and -200 whales be parked: Unknown. What are the crewing ramifications if it happens: Unknown. How much seniority will I lose?: Unknown.
Yes there are a few individuals who want to turn this down because they think that there is money still on the table and we can do better. Personally, I disagree with that logic. I haven't talked with one guy who is upset with the parity part though. The majority of the NO voters are driven by the SLI unkowns, just like the NW guys were driven by the unknowns concerning LOA 19 and the JCBA.
How will I vote? I voted yes on LOA 19, and am leaning towards a yes vote here. Do I have concerns about the SLI? Sure, who doesn't. I believe in our negotiators though, and have faith that they, along with their NW counterparts understand the importance and significance of what they are doing. We may all be required to endure a little pain in the short term, but if the end result is we are better off, I'll sit in the rigt seat a little while longer.
And if I do get furloughed, you bastages better take care of me!
My feeling is that if (and it's a big if,) the DL side turns this down, all RA has to do is offer the NW side LOA 19 too, just change some wording. Now, were both on the same payscale, (there's the parity,) but no JCBA until LOA 19 expires. The SLI would still be completed, just not implemented until a JCBA is ratified. It is an end around of the NO voters. It will not and cannot stop the SLI, but puts us all at a disadvantage against management til we can get a JCBA. It does however, sow the seeds for problems down the road.
What's driving the NO vote is fear of the unknown. Will the -9s and -200 whales be parked: Unknown. What are the crewing ramifications if it happens: Unknown. How much seniority will I lose?: Unknown.
Yes there are a few individuals who want to turn this down because they think that there is money still on the table and we can do better. Personally, I disagree with that logic. I haven't talked with one guy who is upset with the parity part though. The majority of the NO voters are driven by the SLI unkowns, just like the NW guys were driven by the unknowns concerning LOA 19 and the JCBA.
How will I vote? I voted yes on LOA 19, and am leaning towards a yes vote here. Do I have concerns about the SLI? Sure, who doesn't. I believe in our negotiators though, and have faith that they, along with their NW counterparts understand the importance and significance of what they are doing. We may all be required to endure a little pain in the short term, but if the end result is we are better off, I'll sit in the rigt seat a little while longer.
And if I do get furloughed, you bastages better take care of me!
RA likes the -9 and i just dont see the 61 remaining going away anytime soon, especially since RA is actively attempting to cut out a lot of 50 seaters. That Lift has to be done 1 way or the other and with our new scope language that should help keep flying at mainline. The 747-200s arent going anywhere as long as they are doing Military charters. The costs are all covered my the Govt with those flights. They are making money with them. If they were still doing pax service i would say sure they would be gone soon. Cargo ops are increasing slightly and they are passing the fuel costs on which is easier with cargo.
- We all want more money
- we all want stricter scope
- we all want a "fair" SLI
- we all want a strong viable company to work for.
07-06-2008, 10:33 AM
#302
Back on TDY
Joined APC: Apr 2008
Position: 747-400 Captain
Posts: 12,487
Originally Posted by Check Essential
No. I'm saying the JPWA should be used as a carrot to encourage the NWA pilots to negotiate SLI. If they stick with "arbitration or bust" and refuse to allow any meaningful progress in the talks, the JPWA is likely to be voted down.
Originally Posted by Check Essential
Nobody is saying we have to agree on a final list by Aug 12th but it looks like at least some basic principles or maybe a rough outline of methodology might be necessary.
Originally Posted by Check Essential
If you don't want to be on a B scale, negotiate a seniority list by Aug 12.
Face it Check, you're one of those vocal minority types that cannot stomach the idea of a "not really Delta pilot" being paid the same as a "real Delta pilot."
I will look forward with amusement to the contortions required for you to hide this basic belief of yours.
Carl
07-06-2008, 10:46 AM
#303
Back on TDY
Joined APC: Apr 2008
Position: 747-400 Captain
Posts: 12,487
Here is some basic math on the TA vote:
The combined company has roughly 12,000 pilots, 7,000 DAL 5,000 NWA.
NWA pilots will vote FOR the TA by 80% to 20% - maybe higher in my opinion. 80% of 5,000 pilots is 4,000 YES votes.
IF DAL pilots vote AGAINST the TA by 70% to 30% then it passes. 30% of 7,000 pilots is 2,100 YES votes. 4,000 YES votes plus 2,100 YES votes = 6,100 YES votes and 5,900 NO votes.
Does anyone really think that DAL pilots will vote this DOWN by more than 70-30?? Maybe my Delta buds are on the wrong side of this, but they are predicting a YES vote by at least 60-40. Even if it's 50-50, it's waaaayyy done.
Carl
The combined company has roughly 12,000 pilots, 7,000 DAL 5,000 NWA.
NWA pilots will vote FOR the TA by 80% to 20% - maybe higher in my opinion. 80% of 5,000 pilots is 4,000 YES votes.
IF DAL pilots vote AGAINST the TA by 70% to 30% then it passes. 30% of 7,000 pilots is 2,100 YES votes. 4,000 YES votes plus 2,100 YES votes = 6,100 YES votes and 5,900 NO votes.
Does anyone really think that DAL pilots will vote this DOWN by more than 70-30?? Maybe my Delta buds are on the wrong side of this, but they are predicting a YES vote by at least 60-40. Even if it's 50-50, it's waaaayyy done.
Carl
07-06-2008, 11:00 AM
#304
Works Every Weekend
Joined APC: Dec 2007
Position: 737 ATL
Posts: 3,506
Originally Posted by Carl Spackler
What do you mean nobody is saying that, YOU said it. Remember....
Touche.
Face it Check, you're one of those vocal minority types that cannot stomach the idea of a "not really Delta pilot" being paid the same as a "real Delta pilot."
Touche.
Face it Check, you're one of those vocal minority types that cannot stomach the idea of a "not really Delta pilot" being paid the same as a "real Delta pilot."
I don't care about the "real Delta pilot" title. I only care about my wallet and quality of life. If it paid more and gave me more days off, I'd fly Cessnas for WalMart and proudly call myself "associate".
I have 2 issues. The first is the contract duration. I wish it was shorter.
The second is with the seniority integration. I think handing it to some lawyers is bull$hit. There's no reason we can't do this ourselves.
07-06-2008, 11:03 AM
#305
Works Every Weekend
Joined APC: Dec 2007
Position: 737 ATL
Posts: 3,506
Originally Posted by Carl Spackler
Here is some basic math on the TA vote:
The combined company has roughly 12,000 pilots, 7,000 DAL 5,000 NWA.
Maybe my Delta buds are on the wrong side of this, but they are predicting a YES vote by at least 60-40. Even if it's 50-50, it's waaaayyy done.
Carl
The combined company has roughly 12,000 pilots, 7,000 DAL 5,000 NWA.
Maybe my Delta buds are on the wrong side of this, but they are predicting a YES vote by at least 60-40. Even if it's 50-50, it's waaaayyy done.
Carl
Are you under the impression that the vote is combined?
It is not. Both groups have to ratify seperately or the deal fails.
ARTICLE II
COLLECTIVE BARGAINING AGREEMENT
SECTION 2.01.
Entry into the new PWA.
(b)
The Delta MEC and the Northwest MEC have each agreed to recommend ratification by the Delta Pilot Group and the Northwest Pilot Group, respectively, of the new PWA and to submit the new PWA, as promptly as practicable after the date hereof, to the Delta Pilot Group and the Northwest Pilot Group, respectively, for separate ratification, within the time limits set forth in Section 6.01 hereof.
Last edited by Check Essential; 07-06-2008 at 11:18 AM.
07-06-2008, 11:07 AM
#306
Underboob King
Joined APC: May 2005
Position: Guppy Commander
Posts: 4,412
Originally Posted by Check Essential
Payrates aren't my beef Carl. I'm FOR parity from day 1.
I don't care about the "real Delta pilot" title. I only care about my wallet and quality of life. If it paid more and gave me more days off, I'd fly Cessnas for WalMart and proudly call myself "associate".
I have 2 issues. The first is the contract duration. I wish it was shorter.
The second is with the seniority integration. I think handing it to some lawyers is bull$hit. There's no reason we can't do this ourselves.Agreed and thats also the Stance of BOTH MECs.
I don't care about the "real Delta pilot" title. I only care about my wallet and quality of life. If it paid more and gave me more days off, I'd fly Cessnas for WalMart and proudly call myself "associate".
I have 2 issues. The first is the contract duration. I wish it was shorter.
The second is with the seniority integration. I think handing it to some lawyers is bull$hit. There's no reason we can't do this ourselves.Agreed and thats also the Stance of BOTH MECs.
Cheers to working together.
07-06-2008, 11:21 AM
#307
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2006
Position: 767A (Ret)
Posts: 6,248
Hot Potato
Originally Posted by Check Essential
There's no reason we can't do this (SLI) ourselves.
07-06-2008, 11:39 AM
#308
Back on TDY
Joined APC: Apr 2008
Position: 747-400 Captain
Posts: 12,487
Originally Posted by Check Essential
Carl-
Are you under the impression that the vote is combined?
Are you under the impression that the vote is combined?
This could get very interesting. I can see the media stories now: "71% of all pilots vote FOR, 29% vote AGAINST but Delta's new joint agreement with NWA fails because 51% of DAL pilots vote AGAINST." Or: "Delta pilots tell their company to try again while telling NWA pilots 'No payraise for you until we say so.'
I'm going with my buds who tell me it will be 60-40 in favor.
I remember our bankruptcy contract was rumored to go down to defeat by over 2 to 1. Instead it passed by 2 to 1. When the chest thumping is over, most folks' rational mind takes over.
Carl
07-06-2008, 11:43 AM
#309
Back on TDY
Joined APC: Apr 2008
Position: 747-400 Captain
Posts: 12,487
Originally Posted by tomgoodman
True, there's no reason the MECs can't do it but there's a reason why it will be very difficult for them. Unlike arbitrators, pilot negotiators have to return to their flying jobs, working with some angry colleagues who will think the list was "unfair". The temptation to let a third-party professional take the heat may be too strong to overcome, especially if they have a pretty good idea how the list is going to turn out anyway.
Carl
07-06-2008, 11:50 AM
#310
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Apr 2005
Position: 767ER capt
Posts: 1,190
Originally Posted by Carl Spackler
Here is some basic math on the TA vote:
The combined company has roughly 12,000 pilots, 7,000 DAL 5,000 NWA.
NWA pilots will vote FOR the TA by 80% to 20% - maybe higher in my opinion. 80% of 5,000 pilots is 4,000 YES votes.
IF DAL pilots vote AGAINST the TA by 70% to 30% then it passes. 30% of 7,000 pilots is 2,100 YES votes. 4,000 YES votes plus 2,100 YES votes = 6,100 YES votes and 5,900 NO votes.
Does anyone really think that DAL pilots will vote this DOWN by more than 70-30?? Maybe my Delta buds are on the wrong side of this, but they are predicting a YES vote by at least 60-40. Even if it's 50-50, it's waaaayyy done.
Carl
The combined company has roughly 12,000 pilots, 7,000 DAL 5,000 NWA.
NWA pilots will vote FOR the TA by 80% to 20% - maybe higher in my opinion. 80% of 5,000 pilots is 4,000 YES votes.
IF DAL pilots vote AGAINST the TA by 70% to 30% then it passes. 30% of 7,000 pilots is 2,100 YES votes. 4,000 YES votes plus 2,100 YES votes = 6,100 YES votes and 5,900 NO votes.
Does anyone really think that DAL pilots will vote this DOWN by more than 70-30?? Maybe my Delta buds are on the wrong side of this, but they are predicting a YES vote by at least 60-40. Even if it's 50-50, it's waaaayyy done.
Carl
FWIW, I think it will pass 60-40 at Delta.
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