Go Back  Airline Pilot Central Forums > Career Builder > Military
UAV pilot considering move to airlines >

UAV pilot considering move to airlines

Search
Notices
Military Military Aviation

UAV pilot considering move to airlines

Thread Tools
 
Search this Thread
 
Old 12-11-2017, 09:55 AM
  #11  
Covfefe
 
Joined APC: Jun 2015
Posts: 3,001
Default

JetBlue’s regency requirement is 200 hours in the last 12 months and is pretty firm. Can’t speak for any other airlines. But regional pay/bonuses are pretty decent these days. No different (in some cases better) than year 1 pay at majors used to be. Throw in O5 (or whatever) retirement and you should make livable wages at a regional. Your stay at the regionals will likely be short. Months, I’d guess.
BeatNavy is offline  
Old 12-11-2017, 10:16 AM
  #12  
China Visa Applicant
 
Joined APC: Oct 2006
Position: Midfield downwind
Posts: 1,919
Default

Originally Posted by Texasang99 View Post
I appreciate all of the information guys. It’s very helpful. Thanks
Don't be gunshy of going to the regionals for re-currency.

Good discussion from Albie:
Getting Back into the Game

As I cruise into my 50s, it has been interesting to see where my peers and fellow warriors have gone along the way. I’ve lost a few fellow warriors to disease, a few to accidents, and a few to combat along the way. What is fun, however, is seeing a few of my old superiors, contemporaries, and subordinates migrate over to the airline side of the fence after serving their country for 20 to 30 years.

Many of these folks either made plans to transition at some point or at the last minute saw the opportunity for solid second career and made it happen. This article is not for them. This article is for that retiring officer who never really considered the airline gig and made other plans, and is now perhaps having second thoughts on that decision.

First, let me start off by saying I understand how getting offered a six figure salary to run a company or program or do something that seems more “tactical” than flying passengers or boxes from point A to B might be enticing. I’ve had friends and contemporaries offered positions in the oil business, defense contracting, real estate development, software, and host of other fields. Nobody wants to “start over” in their 40s at the bottom of anything, and the idea of leveraging those leadership and decision making skills you’ve honed over two decades is often very appealing. However—when I watch friends dive into the business world, I cannot help but remember Forrest Gump observation after he returned to Alabama after the Vietnam War to chase his friend Bubba’s vision of a shrimping business: “Shrimping is HARD....” Guess what—business is HARD, and sometimes plans don’t go as expected. Many guys are finding out the business world isn’t so much fun, right about the time they realize they haven’t flown any iron the last couple of years.

At some point, every pilot who leaves the military jumps off a financial cliff and takes a pay cut for a period of time. In the early1990s and early 2000s, the first year pay at airline was tough for a captain or major leaving active duty. For a retiring Colonel, it was a tremendous step down. The appeal of migrating over to a 100-150k DoD or business job vice a 50k airline first year salary was obvious. The cut in pay might last for three to five years or more. The industry has changed, however. With the current contracts at most legacies and FDX, SWA, and UPS...second year pay often approaches what many of these non-flying leadership positions offered. Even more importantly, the amount of work and stress is incredibly lower. The upside potential is also higher than in recent years. An FO can make 175-200k at many companies while a captain at a legacy or FedEx may make 250-400k a year. The financial penalty for the leap is much less severe these days.

So—for those of you now taking a second look at this industry, I’ll offer a few suggestions and pointers.

Currency is a problem for many of you. During some of my “Ask Albie Anything” Conference Calls, I’ve had Charle Venema on as a guest. Charlie was the head of hiring at UAL for several years, and will identify himself as “...the SOB who came up with the requirement for 100 hours in the last year....” He goes on to describe how when UAL starting recalling guys who had been our of the cockpit for several years, they saw many of them—previously qualified airline pilots—struggle after the layoff. Because they were already employees, they gave them extra training and they bounced back. The issue is if a new hire had the same kind of struggles, they would have most likely been fired or asked to resign. Charlie never wanted to put the “death mark” on a pilot’s future application by firing him, so they looked for pilots who were current. It wasn’t out of malice—it was to the protect the pilot.

So—Colonel—what do you do when its been 2, 3, or more years since you’ve flown?

When my old friends reach out to me for advice, they usually have two possible solutions:

1. I’m gonna go get my 737 type/ATP to requal....
2. I’m going to go fly a bunch of General Aviation....

The issue with option 1 is it is good, but it still might not be enough. Maybe the head guru at SWA says he’ll interview you, but even if he does you have to pass the interview and you will be at SWA where you will be an FO until you are in your late 50s. If you want SWA...and are happy with that...maybe that angle is enough. The cost of that ATP/Type, however, is on you.

Option 2 often just isn’t enough. GA is cool...but it doesn’t always seem to count much at the majors. They want quality time...and single engine piston time is better than nothing but it doesn’t carry much weight.

So....let me offer option 3. Going to a regional airline for a stint can help you in many ways. First, it gets you qualified again, with an ATP, at no cost to you. Second, the training is usually built around someone coming to their first jet, vice the experience assumed when you show up in training at a major. Some Fighter pilots struggle in their first 121 training at a major if they go direct from active duty. Its not insurmountable, but there are enough differences to create some challenges—including crosswind landings and crew coordination. The regional’s training is built for first timers, and is often better and more complete training than you get at the majors. It won’t hurt you to do this once before you show up at Delta or FedEx. Finally—there is “baggage” with hiring a retired O-6. The unspoken (or articulated) question will be “are you going to be okay being the FO and learning a new gig without being the man for a while?” Most retiring officers do great at this—but a handful don’t. Six to twelve months in the regionals answers the question before its even asked, and indicates you are ready and willing to dive into your new role without drama.

The question I often get is “will the regionals even hire me if I they think I will leave? “ The answer at least for now is a resounding “yes”. The regionals need quality pilots, and they know you will be solid. They’ll amortize their training costs if they get to keep you for even a year or less. Additionally, there is always the chance maybe you’ll like it and stay—and anchor there vice moving on. Case in point—a few years ago I had a retired PAS from Utah go to Skywest. He was perfectly content if nobody ever called to drive to work at SLC and be an RJ captain for 100k a year. His family had non-rev benefits on not only Delta but United, and he liked the people he worked with every day. It would have been a good, low-stress gig for a retired Colonel. Delta came along, however and plucked him up. This was in 2011/12, when things were not nearly as tight as they are now. One old friend went to work for ASA/Expressjet out of Atlanta after a flying layoff of about 8 years. Less than 10 months later he got hired and is now a 777 FO for FedEx. He will probably make about 200k his second year on the job.

So—what is the biggest barrier to retiring officers doing this? Money and ego are the biggest issues I see.

For money—here’s my take. In 2-3 years you’ll be at parity or better if you make this leap. The longer you wait, the more money on the back end you leave on the table. There is never an easy time to jump. So—jump now and get on with it and you will be closer to getting the dollars back. Grab a W-2 from a friend at the airline and take a look. I don’t know a single DoD project manager or simulator instructor that makes half of what I made last year as a captain. I also bet I have a lot more free time and a lot less stress.

Second—realize that the airline job is a noble profession. We need good people to come over who take pride in doing the job right. The US population doesn’t travel by rail or ferry for most of interstate travel—we fly. We are an aerospace nation. By taking your skills into this market you are continuing our dominance of all things aviation, and you can have pride in being part of that legacy. Additionally, if you still want to shape policy or contribute in the DoD world you can—part time. I have flown with F-22 and F-35 system gurus and experts that did that in their off time when not flying for an airline. The beauty is they they were now getting paid airline dollars and accruing airline seniority while they still helped their nation. Its not a “this or that” decision when you become an airline pilot, but it can be a “this AND that....” if you don’t mind the extra work.

So—if this note gets to you and you want to chat—give me a call. I sell interview prep, but bull****ting about life and this industry is always free. I seem to be doing a lot of that lately with some retired warriors, and if I can help you get some focus please feel free to reach out
Plus other discussions on the matter:

Staff guy to regionals
How do majors view retiring staffers?
Retiring colonel...WWYD?
https://www.airlinepilotforums.com/m...t-recency.html
Military to Regional
Rusty military pilot considering applying
Seperated military pilot, non current
Majors hire non current military pilots?
Getting back in the saddle?
Hacker15e is offline  
Old 12-11-2017, 11:01 AM
  #13  
Gets Weekends Off
 
Joined APC: Nov 2011
Posts: 4,504
Default

i second that. I separated way early with the voluntary separation programs so I was very low time but still had my ATP. Talked with Albie if it would be better for me to do contract work or suck it up and go to a regional. He said suck it up and do the regional. As soon as I hit 110 hours at the regional I got the call to interview at a major. I started at a major almost a year before my peers that went and did the contract gig for the paycheck. I know our applications aren't comparing apples to apples but I found it to be pretty consistent.
tunes is offline  
Old 12-11-2017, 11:22 AM
  #14  
Prime Minister/Moderator
 
rickair7777's Avatar
 
Joined APC: Jan 2006
Position: Engines Turn Or People Swim
Posts: 39,293
Default

Originally Posted by 155mm View Post
This gentleman flew C-5's not C-150's. I don't think he'll have a problem getting through training, the challenge as for everyone is getting interviews! Apparently, the Regionals are looking more for "qualified" applicants and not necessarily recency of experience. Whereas the majors are looking for the whole package but that will probably change soon as well. I sat as a flight engineer for many years and it all came back quick. It's not rocket science!
Someone who has been out of the cockpit for many years is going to be paddling really hard at any major airline training. UAVs will help just a tiny bit. Pilot skills are very perishable, to say nothing of having to learn all the 121 stuff on top of learning a new jet, while learning how to fly again. I took a year off once, that was eye opening.

Not saying it can't be done, but there's a reason the majors like turbine recency.
rickair7777 is offline  
Old 12-11-2017, 12:10 PM
  #15  
Gets Weekends Off
 
155mm's Avatar
 
Joined APC: Nov 2014
Posts: 454
Default

Originally Posted by rickair7777 View Post
Someone who has been out of the cockpit for many years is going to be paddling really hard at any major airline training. UAVs will help just a tiny bit. Pilot skills are very perishable, to say nothing of having to learn all the 121 stuff on top of learning a new jet, while learning how to fly again. I took a year off once, that was eye opening.

Not saying it can't be done, but there's a reason the majors like turbine recency.
First of all, I have no doubt this individual will do well at any airline program. Where he will struggle is flying 135 single pilot freight in a steam engine in the Rocky Mountains in a blizzard landing on a sheet of ice in blowing snow and breaking action nil. Before the AQP days I would have agreed with you. AQP training in a highly automated glass aircraft is a joke and is designed to get monkeys a type rating! The greatest challenge is getting the interview and getting hired. Hell, I've heard stories of really bizarre interview scenarios but that's, "a different conversation".

Last edited by 155mm; 12-11-2017 at 12:42 PM.
155mm is offline  
Old 12-11-2017, 02:30 PM
  #16  
Prime Minister/Moderator
 
rickair7777's Avatar
 
Joined APC: Jan 2006
Position: Engines Turn Or People Swim
Posts: 39,293
Default

Originally Posted by 155mm View Post
First of all, I have no doubt this individual will do well at any airline program. Where he will struggle is flying 135 single pilot freight in a steam engine in the Rocky Mountains in a blizzard landing on a sheet of ice in blowing snow and breaking action nil. Before the AQP days I would have agreed with you. AQP training in a highly automated glass aircraft is a joke and is designed to get monkeys a type rating! The greatest challenge is getting the interview and getting hired. Hell, I've heard stories of really bizarre interview scenarios but that's, "a different conversation".
Have you done airline training/re-training after extensive time away? It's amazing the things you lose, which we take for granted as aviators.
rickair7777 is offline  
Old 12-11-2017, 04:11 PM
  #17  
Gets Weekends Off
 
155mm's Avatar
 
Joined APC: Nov 2014
Posts: 454
Default

Originally Posted by rickair7777 View Post
Have you done airline training/re-training after extensive time away? It's amazing the things you lose, which we take for granted as aviators.
Being proficient is more than currency. I've flown with "current" pilots that log over a 1000 hours a year and are brain dead and absolutely suck eggs! I've also flown with 250 hour pilots that would make your eyes water. Most airlines have eliminated the simulator ride as part of the interview process which in my opinion is a big mistake. Pilots are obviously receiving the interview prep that makes them shine for that big day but you can't fundamentally change who they really are.

In regards, to your inquiry about extensive time away? Yes, I previously stated I was a flight engineer (plumber) for a few years. I had no currency. I believe conceptions/misconceptions about UAV pilots are similar to that of a flight engineer or a simulator instructor. They have no currency flying "real airplanes" but I don't believe this correlates to proficiency! Where is the evidence that UAV pilots, especially those who are rated aircraft pilots with thousands of hours of actual flight time lose their proficiency? You state "UAV pilot will help just a tiny bit". Do you have evidence to show that UAV pilot skills help at all or is it an assumption?

I've flown with pilots that had UAV assignments and they were fine. That's the only evidence I have and it is anecdotal. I've also flown with simulator instructors that hadn't flown a real airplane for years and they were highly proficient although not current and yet a 1000 hour XYZ College graduate can get a Restricted ATP with 975 hours in a Diamond Katana and 25 hours multi-engine and be the cats-meow for a Regional Airline.

I hope pilots currently assigned UAV can shed some light on their sense of "proficiency" as aviators.

Last edited by 155mm; 12-11-2017 at 04:54 PM.
155mm is offline  
Old 12-11-2017, 04:44 PM
  #18  
Banned
 
Joined APC: Jan 2015
Posts: 516
Default

Originally Posted by 155mm View Post
Being proficient is more than currency. I've flown with "current" pilots that log over a 1000 hours a year and are brain dead and absolutely suck eggs! I've also flown with 250 hour pilots that would make your eyes water. Most airlines have eliminated the simulator ride as part of the interview process which in my opinion is a big mistake. Pilots are obviously receiving the interview prep that makes them shine for that big day but you can't fundamentally change who they really are.
There are not enough crashes to substantiate the current minimum standards for pilots. Every ATP rated pilot is overqualified for their job. That's why the industry along with a cheaply purchased FAA want to cut it to 500hrs.
kevbo is offline  
Old 12-11-2017, 06:59 PM
  #19  
Gets Weekends Off
 
Joined APC: Jan 2013
Posts: 834
Default

Originally Posted by kevbo View Post
There are not enough crashes to substantiate the current minimum standards for pilots. Every ATP rated pilot is overqualified for their job. That's why the industry along with a cheaply purchased FAA want to cut it to 500hrs.
"Every ATP rated pilot is overqualified for their job" That seems a fairly bold and general statement. While a pilot might find themselves underemployed or not presented with requisite personal challenges, Etc. I cannot think of an instance where one would be overqualified.
Yoda2 is offline  
Old 12-11-2017, 07:13 PM
  #20  
Covfefe
 
Joined APC: Jun 2015
Posts: 3,001
Default

Originally Posted by Yoda2 View Post
"Every ATP rated pilot is overqualified for their job" That seems a fairly bold and general statement. While a pilot might find themselves underemployed or not presented with requisite personal challenges, Etc. I cannot think of an instance where one would be overqualified.
Look at his post history. He is a troll with a huge chip on his shoulder against military pilots, and in some posts all pilots in general. I think be had a traumatic experience from a mil pilot or his own personal deficiencies trying to be one. Purely speculative, but no other explanation for the hate and nonsensical posts he makes.
BeatNavy is offline  
Related Topics
Thread
Thread Starter
Forum
Replies
Last Post
CaptainBigWood
American
11
03-26-2016 12:30 PM
rfw22
Corporate
34
03-21-2014 11:09 PM
bgmann
Regional
31
11-19-2011 07:33 PM
multipilot
Regional
11
06-15-2008 06:58 PM
maddogmax
Regional
65
06-23-2007 07:41 PM

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On



Your Privacy Choices