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NetJets Tentative Agreement - thoughts?

Old 03-17-2024, 09:29 AM
  #31  
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Originally Posted by MinRest
They use year 14 PIC rates at NJA and compare them to undisclosed YOS mainline rates at min guarantee. Literally top of the scale PIC rates at NJA compared to airline rates they don't want to add context to, because if they did, it would be laughable. First of all, this chart was created this year because it is an IBI24 resource guide, and they include data from 2022 which is 100% irrelevant. Then they take random airline numbers out of thin air to compare them to the highest pay rate NJA PICs on the 7&7. For 2024 the airline rate they use is 310 an hour. A year one narrowbody PIC at American makes 331 an hour right now. The rates used for DAL, UAL and AAL are old and incorrect. I am racking my brain trying to figure out whether NJASAP is just simply ignorant of the industry or if this is them willfully misleading the pilot group. Hell, I make 10 dollars less right now as a year 8 narrowbody PIC, than the TOP of the airline scale for 2029 that NJASAP used.

It couldn't be more factually inaccurate if they tried...
Count me as one that is constantly confused why you feel the need to continue to return here to disparage the efforts of this pilot group. I usually try to ignore your posts, but this one needed a response because you keep making this statement even though I am not sure why it matters to you.

For full disclosure, I am not impressed with the number of errors that were released in the various 2024TA documents. For sure some of the charts could have had better clarification as well.

First with the pay comparision chart, while it should have been put on the chart (see my previous statement), if you take a second to analyze the chart the numbers presents are obviously in thousands, not hourly rate. This is indicated on a previous chart, but not this one for some reason. So the 2024 Major Airline number of $310 is showing $310,000. You can double check this by referencing the year 14 NJA proposed payscales. The year 14 small cabin PIC 7/7 is $237,655, shown as $238 on the pay comparision chart.

If you were actually here and received the various communications throughout the bargaining process, you would also have some more background on how they came to some of these comparisions. It is outlined with more clarification in a previous document, but it is also referenced pay comparision chart notes. From a previous document which was prepared by our economist consultants: "Average narrowbody pay rate derived from top of scale pay rates, adjusted for escalation clauses, multiplied by 12 months and the applicable minimum monthly guarantees at each carrier to produce an annualized salary. The “narrowbody pilot market” annual salary shown here is an unweighted average of the resulting annualized pay rates at Alaska, American, Delta, JetBlue, United, and Southwest." I presume they used the exact same method for updated numbers on this chart. While I have not done all the math to verify the numbers, however since you brought up American:

Looks like the current 2024 Year 12 narrowbody Captain pay at American is $360.85. At a 73 hour guarantee, I get $316,104.60 for the year. In addition, looks like Delta is right around $279,000 at minimum guarantee for a year 12 narrow body Captain (full disclosure not sure if the rate I found is exactly current with potential snap ups). Just using those two reference points, the $310,000 blended rate in the pay comparision document looks right in the ballpark for an average year 12 narrowbody Captain's minimum guarantee.

While we can debate the comparision of airline minimum guarantee vs NJA base salary, or why we are not comparing year 12 to year 12 vs top of scale to top of scale, your statement that this chart "couldn't be more factually inaccurate" appears off base.
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Old 03-17-2024, 09:36 AM
  #32  
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IMO they are willfully misleading the pilot group..... that way, if it passes they look amazing and if it doesn't they can say, "i told you so".....

that way, if the pilot group still isn't happy (which they wont), they can say, "i told you so" and if the pilots are happy, they will say, "look at all of the good we did....vote me back in".

It's such a game.
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Old 03-17-2024, 09:38 AM
  #33  
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Sorry, wasn't throwing a spear directly at you. I was just trying to point out what BS numbers NJASAP published and how you really can't project what you can make.

Agree, probably 10% over min guarantee, but at the end of the day......you are only guaranteed MIN GUARANTEE or base.

I used those numbers as an entering argument and then think about basing, schedule, QOL, etc, etc to help make the OP's decision.
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Old 03-17-2024, 10:07 AM
  #34  
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Originally Posted by Bulldog08
Corporate guy here just window shopping.....I've skimmed through the TA, but wondering if someone could shed some real world numbers. If this passes what would the average FO make working the 7/7 after adding FDP, etc.? What are upgrade times these days?

I'm currently makng $180k. Trying to figure out how long it would take to break even if i made the jump sticking to the 7/7. Mainly interested in netjets for the basing options, insurance, and set schedule.
This is a retread of a post I made a year ago in a different thread. I updated the post with the proposed numbers from 2024TA. If the TA does not pass, these numbers will be invalid. In addition, since the time of the original post the company has stopped providing quarterly updates to average flight times in the fleets. These numbers are from over a year ago, and there was only one additional update after that (if my memory serves me correctly). The updated numbers were fairly similiar. Anecdotal evidence from the XLS/Sovereign fleets seem to indicate that average flight times have decreased in those fleets. Not too sure about the other fleets. Finally, the IOE wait times have gone way out in several of the fleets. The Phenom has had folks waiting 6 months before starting IOE. There could be quite a bit of variance on first year pay just due to IOE wait time depending on fleet.

Updated info in italics.

---

2024TA Year 1 Base Wages are as follows -
7/7 & CC60 - $90,543
8/6 - $105,029
CC52 - $86,015 (And yes, new hires have been successful in bidding this schedule depending on fleet)
CC72 - $110,462
CC76 - $117,706


Based on the most recent data from the Union on fleet averages - The lowest new hire fleet is averaging 2.88 hours per day. The highest new hire fleet is averaging 3.65 hours per day. The average for all the new hire fleets is 3.26 hours per day.

*This is where it gets a little subjective in how to apply these data points* This is my recommendation for estimating first year pay (disclaimer: it may only be worth what you paid for it) -

I would expect 4 (potentially longer) months on the training pay schedule (CC72). I think that is a fair average at this point (this might even be on the low side). Some may be way longer, some may be shorter. After that you can choose your desired schedule (from a list of available options) until the next bid. Starting the first bid after completion of IOE, you bid like everyone else. When calculating hour many tours you will be able to earn FDP, I would suggest planning on only the tours after the completion of the training schedule to give you a safer answer. So for example on the 7/7, I would recommend only planning on 16 tours or 112 days (26 yearly tours - 8 missed tours while on the CC76 - 1 tour vacation - 1 tour recurrent). The CC schedules make this part more complicated. For days available to earn FDP, I would take total days worked in two bid periods minus 14 days (vacation and recurrent). So for the CC76, I would recommend estimating 138 days (152 days for two bid periods of the CC76 - 7 days for vacation - 7 days for recurrent). Since the CC schedules tour lengths are not set, it is not as easy to determine how many tours you will work. But, I think it is fair to estimate an average of 3 tours per month, or 22 tours your first year (24 tours for 8 months - 1 tour vacation - 1 tour recurrent).

Base pay = (CC72 Base x .34) + (Desired Schedule x .66)
FDP = ((Days available to earn FDP x fleet average per day) - (Tours worked x 10)) x 200


Example for 7/7 and the lowest FDP fleet
(110462 x .34) + (90543 x .66)
37557.08 + 59758.38
Base pay = $97,315.46


((112 x 2.88) - (16 x 10)) x 200
(322.56 - 160) x 200
FDP = $32,512


Total Year 1 = $129,827.46

Example for CC76 and highest FDP fleet
(110462 x .34) + (117706 x .66)
37557.08 + 77685.96
Base pay = $115,243.04

((138 x 3.65) - (22 x 10)) x 200
(503.7 - 220) x 200
FDP = $56,740

Total Year 1 = $171,983.04


All of this to say, I think a reasonable year one range would be between $129,827 to $171,983 if the 2024TA passes (delays in IOE can quickly reduce your earning potential). You can plug and play with the various schedules and FDP values to match your expected situation. Common knowledge is to plan only on your guaranteed base pay. For which you can still use these calculations to figure out base pay dependent on schedule choice, just ignore the FDP portion. However, if you are trying to determine what you might expect with FDP, I would suggest planning on getting assigned to the lowest FDP fleet.

Before everyone jumps on "well but what about" - Yes, some people make more than this and some people make less. As I said before, there will be outliers and those who are above or below these averages. That's the nature of the game here/averages, some things you just have no control over. Yes, if it takes longer to begin IOE that will reduce the number of tours available to make FDP, thus reducing total year 1 compensation. On the flip side, you will stay on the CC72 pay longer, which could raise your base pay if you intend on picking a lesser schedule after IOE. Yes, I did not factor in overnight, NFAD, holiday, after midnights, extended days, etc. These would all add to total year one compensation, but these are even more elusive to tie down good data backed average for how much you are going to get. Yes, you do not take home 100% of the FDP pay, 1/3 of your FDP will go straight to your 401k. That will be deducted before it ever hits your bank account in addition to all your other taxes/deductions. Yes, these fleet averages change, and the next round of data we may see a decrease. All you can do is make as educated decision as you can with the data available. Remember these fleet averages are over a year old at this point. Yes, Netjets compensation is hard to understand. 18 months here and I'm still learning how some of the soft money is calculated. I'd love to see it simplified in future contracts and less dependent on luck. Finally, no, I am not saying you are guaranteed to break $100,00 in your first year. However, if 2024TA passes it is much more likely that breaking $100,000 your first year is very likely.
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Old 03-17-2024, 01:40 PM
  #35  
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Originally Posted by hdgbug
This is a retread of a post I made a year ago in a different thread. I updated the post with the proposed numbers from 2024TA. If the TA does not pass, these numbers will be invalid. In addition, since the time of the original post the company has stopped providing quarterly updates to average flight times in the fleets. These numbers are from over a year ago, and there was only one additional update after that (if my memory serves me correctly). The updated numbers were fairly similiar. Anecdotal evidence from the XLS/Sovereign fleets seem to indicate that average flight times have decreased in those fleets. Not too sure about the other fleets. Finally, the IOE wait times have gone way out in several of the fleets. The Phenom has had folks waiting 6 months before starting IOE. There could be quite a bit of variance on first year pay just due to IOE wait time depending on fleet.

Updated info in italics.

---

2024TA Year 1 Base Wages are as follows -
7/7 & CC60 - $90,543
8/6 - $105,029
CC52 - $86,015 (And yes, new hires have been successful in bidding this schedule depending on fleet)
CC72 - $110,462
CC76 - $117,706


Based on the most recent data from the Union on fleet averages - The lowest new hire fleet is averaging 2.88 hours per day. The highest new hire fleet is averaging 3.65 hours per day. The average for all the new hire fleets is 3.26 hours per day.

*This is where it gets a little subjective in how to apply these data points* This is my recommendation for estimating first year pay (disclaimer: it may only be worth what you paid for it) -

I would expect 4 (potentially longer) months on the training pay schedule (CC72). I think that is a fair average at this point (this might even be on the low side). Some may be way longer, some may be shorter. After that you can choose your desired schedule (from a list of available options) until the next bid. Starting the first bid after completion of IOE, you bid like everyone else. When calculating hour many tours you will be able to earn FDP, I would suggest planning on only the tours after the completion of the training schedule to give you a safer answer. So for example on the 7/7, I would recommend only planning on 16 tours or 112 days (26 yearly tours - 8 missed tours while on the CC76 - 1 tour vacation - 1 tour recurrent). The CC schedules make this part more complicated. For days available to earn FDP, I would take total days worked in two bid periods minus 14 days (vacation and recurrent). So for the CC76, I would recommend estimating 138 days (152 days for two bid periods of the CC76 - 7 days for vacation - 7 days for recurrent). Since the CC schedules tour lengths are not set, it is not as easy to determine how many tours you will work. But, I think it is fair to estimate an average of 3 tours per month, or 22 tours your first year (24 tours for 8 months - 1 tour vacation - 1 tour recurrent).

Base pay = (CC72 Base x .34) + (Desired Schedule x .66)
FDP = ((Days available to earn FDP x fleet average per day) - (Tours worked x 10)) x 200


Example for 7/7 and the lowest FDP fleet
(110462 x .34) + (90543 x .66)
37557.08 + 59758.38
Base pay = $97,315.46


((112 x 2.88) - (16 x 10)) x 200
(322.56 - 160) x 200
FDP = $32,512


Total Year 1 = $129,827.46

Example for CC76 and highest FDP fleet
(110462 x .34) + (117706 x .66)
37557.08 + 77685.96
Base pay = $115,243.04

((138 x 3.65) - (22 x 10)) x 200
(503.7 - 220) x 200
FDP = $56,740

Total Year 1 = $171,983.04


All of this to say, I think a reasonable year one range would be between $129,827 to $171,983 if the 2024TA passes (delays in IOE can quickly reduce your earning potential). You can plug and play with the various schedules and FDP values to match your expected situation. Common knowledge is to plan only on your guaranteed base pay. For which you can still use these calculations to figure out base pay dependent on schedule choice, just ignore the FDP portion. However, if you are trying to determine what you might expect with FDP, I would suggest planning on getting assigned to the lowest FDP fleet.

Before everyone jumps on "well but what about" - Yes, some people make more than this and some people make less. As I said before, there will be outliers and those who are above or below these averages. That's the nature of the game here/averages, some things you just have no control over. Yes, if it takes longer to begin IOE that will reduce the number of tours available to make FDP, thus reducing total year 1 compensation. On the flip side, you will stay on the CC72 pay longer, which could raise your base pay if you intend on picking a lesser schedule after IOE. Yes, I did not factor in overnight, NFAD, holiday, after midnights, extended days, etc. These would all add to total year one compensation, but these are even more elusive to tie down good data backed average for how much you are going to get. Yes, you do not take home 100% of the FDP pay, 1/3 of your FDP will go straight to your 401k. That will be deducted before it ever hits your bank account in addition to all your other taxes/deductions. Yes, these fleet averages change, and the next round of data we may see a decrease. All you can do is make as educated decision as you can with the data available. Remember these fleet averages are over a year old at this point. Yes, Netjets compensation is hard to understand. 18 months here and I'm still learning how some of the soft money is calculated. I'd love to see it simplified in future contracts and less dependent on luck. Finally, no, I am not saying you are guaranteed to break $100,00 in your first year. However, if 2024TA passes it is much more likely that breaking $100,000 your first year is very likely.
[MENTION=79246]hdgbug[/MENTION] very reasonable and justified estimation. Also, with some more incentives availble for TR CA, the IOE times MIGHT reduce a little bit if the TA is adapted.
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Old 03-17-2024, 02:27 PM
  #36  
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It passes with a yes vote from me and 73 percent is my guess.

Would have been less but now the plates are starting to stop.
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Old 03-19-2024, 02:55 AM
  #37  
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Originally Posted by UTR69
Those numbers are complete BS.

You make your base pay. EVERYTHING else is fluff money and there is ZERO way to forecast it. (Except holidays if you are on the 8/6 or 7/7 schedule and they are known in advance).

However, if you take a 121 MIN GUARANTEE and compare it to the 7/7, using delta numbers you come up with a difference of about $27,000 in favor of Delta. Then subtract Delta's health insurance prices (since yours is "free") and you get a difference of about $2500 in favor of Delta.

Those comparisons are MIN GUARANTEE compared to our 7/7.......nothing more.

It's impossible to compute FDP. People will give you estimates and what they did last year but if you want something to hang your hat on, just use the base pay numbers.

Good Luck.... (these numbers are using the new TA numbers)
For anybody considering NJ, this is good advice for when you put the pencil to paper. And if you do choose NJ, bribe whoever you to bribe to NOT get put in the XLS. 9.3 FDP for the entire tour ain't gonna get you a new truck.
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Old 03-19-2024, 05:42 AM
  #38  
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Originally Posted by UTR69
Those numbers are complete BS.

You make your base pay. EVERYTHING else is fluff money and there is ZERO way to forecast it. (Except holidays if you are on the 8/6 or 7/7 schedule and they are known in advance).

However, if you take a 121 MIN GUARANTEE and compare it to the 7/7, using delta numbers you come up with a difference of about $27,000 in favor of Delta. Then subtract Delta's health insurance prices (since yours is "free") and you get a difference of about $2500 in favor of Delta.

Those comparisons are MIN GUARANTEE compared to our 7/7.......nothing more.

It's impossible to compute FDP. People will give you estimates and what they did last year but if you want something to hang your hat on, just use the base pay numbers.

Good Luck.... (these numbers are using the new TA numbers)
If we are going to subtract medical insurance, we should keep it fair and add bonuses to the airline salary to keep it fair. For a 14 year CA at Delta that is probably around 50k...
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Old 03-20-2024, 10:08 AM
  #39  
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Originally Posted by MinRest
If we are going to subtract medical insurance, we should keep it fair and add bonuses to the airline salary to keep it fair. For a 14 year CA at Delta that is probably around 50k...
Yup....and that would be awesome except you aren't hired as a 14 year CA at Delta.

This is the same issue with the unions publications on this TA. They seem to use 14 years as a benchmark for their advertisements however it takes 14 years to get to that level.

Im just saying, use the starting point....and go with min guarantee and things that are guaranteed to you as either a new hire (or a magical 14 year new hire).

Run with what you know and you wont be disappointed.

IMO, there is something to be said with having a schedule set for a year and no commuting vs 3 on 3 off, 3 on 3 off, 4 on 3 off and commuting on your days off.

Good luck!
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Old 03-20-2024, 10:23 AM
  #40  
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Originally Posted by UTR69
Yup....and that would be awesome except you aren't hired as a 14 year CA at Delta.
You aren't hired as a 14 year CA at NetJets either, yet that was the basis of measurement.
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