Look at the recent bidding memorandums. For example, 11/20/2024 email from bidding. Scroll to the 650 FO bids (last page), look at the least senior numbers. 11/04 hires were awarded large cabin on 11/20, that's like 3 days after they finished indoc.

 

I does matter. A pass on the FAA check resets the failure counter. See 6.7(a)(1). The failures have to be consecutive per 6.7(c)

 

Interesting, that’s good news for probationary pilots.

 

does netjets have a reputation of firing people on probation or a high wash out rate? Not sure why this is even a concern if not

 

No bad rap at all. Company and pilots are bound by the contract though.

 

This is true. I know personally of at least one who was awarded the 650 between completing indoc and going to school for their initial assignment.

I do not know how many have actually washed out. I have heard reports I trust that the company is not offering much if any leniency to those attempting large cabin training if they are on probation. The contract gives the company the option of letting you go after two consecutive failures, but it does not mandate they do so. This has been mentioned before and I think it is worth reiterating. Failure to be recommended for a checkride counts as a failure in regards to the application of the contract. Fail to be recommended for the checkride twice - they can bounce you. Fail to be recommended once, then fail the actual checkride - they can bounce you. I believe the failure to recommend is likely what is hurting the folks that have been terminated or allowed to resign in lieu.

Is it possible to make it through with little or no experience outside of piston aircraft? Sure. Just purely based on the number we've had go to the large cabin fleets, I'm sure we've had quite a few in that position make it through. However, I have good friends who have gone through the program who have told me they would not recommend someone attempt the course without a bit of experience under their belt. The program just isn't designed as an introduction to jet aircraft in the same way that the airlines may do it.

Would I ever tell someone they shouldn't go large cabin if they want it? Not at all. It's just important that you understand what going that route means; both in terms of the effort you may need to put in to be successful in training, and the risk that you are assuming if you have any problems - especially while on probation.

 

hdgbug is correct about the training failure definition and also about the fact that the company has option but is not required to discharge a probie after his second bust.

Sadly, the failure rates are kept secret by the company and by our own union. I have asked what's the failure rate a couple times but I never gotten a straight answer.

And no the company is not known for busting people for no reason. Here's another example, did you know that if a pilot is not recommended after 2 IOE blocks then it's a training failure per CBA? When I was going through IOE I asked the training captain is that for reals, am I a toast if I don't finish in 2 blocks? And he said Hell no, a lot of people needed extra IOE blocks and not one of them got the boot. In fact, the company was even willing to offer extra sims to people who were struggling in the IOE, as long as they had the right attitude and were willing to own it.

 

Going into block 3 is not a failure. I would have to dig up the IOE forms, but there's a difference between new to fleet, in-fleet, and coming back from an LOA on the IOE form. You can go into blocks 3 and 4 as a new hire. It's documented, but not a failure on your PRIA. I am about as sure of this as you are on your hearsay.

 

No need to rely on the hearsay when something is right there in the CBA. I'll dig that up for you because I'm that nice, it's 6.7(a)(3). Another good resource is SDP manual, it's in your Comply even if you are not an SDP. Section 3.3 "IOE Training" is the one you're looking for.

 

I think of IOE failures as HR failures. They aren't FAA failures. Going into block 3 is a failure. Going into block 4 is also a failure, although there is no block 4 on the new hire IOE form. It's greyed out. That's 2 failures in a row and likely a termination as a newhire on probation.

To color in the process. The IOE captain does the first 3 landings. Then the crew alternates landings. Block 1 is 10 landing at the controls. Block 2 is another 10 landings at the controls. Block 3 is four more landings at the controls.

This means you're at 51 legs before going into block 4 (which doesn't exist).