Hobbit64

On LogBook Pro you can set up custom columns beyond the standard ones.

Set one column up as 'PIC-61' or what ever. That way you can 'break out' Part 61 PIC time if an employer wants/accepts it.

I lost a job because I strictly interpreted Part 1 vs. 61 PIC time and came up 100 hours short of PIC time. The strong impression I got was that they would have accepted Part 61.51 (e) (1) (i) time as a means to meet insurance requirements. They knew I had the knowledge experience but were bound by insurance mins too. At the time I didn't agree with it or feel comfortable with that interpretation, now I realize the difference between the two. Is it right? I don't know, but I keep Part 61 now if it's legal. I just keep it in a way that I can break it out if necessary and add it to the Part 1 PIC. I can explain the differences of Part 1 & 61 in an interview and allow the interviewer to make up their mind and let the pieces fall as they may.

I know when I was 'signed' for an Aircraft and when I was the 'sole manipulator'.

Part 135 vs Part 91 legs is another issue also. I personally don't see why someone on a part 91 leg in a Caravan can't log it if they meet the requirements. A company can be more selective but 'sole manipulator' is just what it is.

What am I missing?

ppilot

Acting as PIC and logging PIC are totally different things for recreational/private/commercial pilots. The company can designate a PIC, but the person flying can be someone different and completely within their rights to log PIC.

Your ExpressJet interview point is a good one though. If it were me (and it's not) I would count that time as PIC to qualify for a rating or insurance, but would not credit the time towards requirements for employment. I wouldn't be worried that someone would 'throw me out' for having logged it, BUT if they had say a 2000 hr PIC requirement, and I don't have that 2000 hours without counting that 'soft' PIC time, they're completely within their rights to not want to hire me. YMMV, but that is how I would look at it.

Hobbit64, I agree with you completely.

own nav

I'm with you. I won't tell someone they can't log it in this situation, but really, I don't see any point where it will more likely lead to you back peddling in an interview than actually impressing them. Set yourself off on the right foot with your future employer by not giving them any reason to distrust you.

AtlCSIP

Logging PIC time is not the same as Acting as PIC. To log PIC time on a flight that you are not acting as PIC, you must be the sole manipulator of the flight controls in an aircraft for which you are appropriately rated. It's in the regs under Logging Flight Time. To manipulate the flight controls under Part 135, you must be Qualified (potentially long discussion) even if you are the SIC.

illinipilot

Ok, I can see the validity of an argument to one can log PIC time if two pilots are not required per type certification or operating regs.

If two pilots are required though, the question as to whom acting as PIC is very relevant to logging PIC. In the "Logging Flight Time" (61.51) regulation it specifically states that if not acting as a PIC in such an aircraft, then the only time that one should log PIC time is:

"(iv) When the pilot performs the duties of pilot in command while under the supervision of a qualified pilot in command provided—

(A) The pilot performing the duties of pilot in command holds a commercial or airline transport pilot certificate and aircraft rating that is appropriate to the category and class of aircraft being flown, if a class rating is appropriate;

(B) The pilot performing the duties of pilot in command is undergoing an approved pilot in command training program that includes ground and flight training on the following areas of operation— etc [ed]"

IP

a300driver

This has been debated in the past and will certainly continue as people interpret the regs. If you're logging PIC, do you expect the gentleman officially designated by the company as PIC (name on the release, log book, flight plan etc, flying with you not to log it? He is directly responsible for the safe operation of the a/c, if there is an altitude violation or incident he's taking the fall. When I was Captain on the Lear we sometimes used co-captains due to F/O shortages, it's typed for a PIC and SIC. Occasionally I flew as co-captain; usually in the left seat for my leg, and I always logged it as SIC since I was never designated on the paperwork as PIC for that flight. I guess it's your call, always subject to interpretation

Fly Boy Knight

I was a CFI for almost 3 years and I have ran around this question 80,000 times and the major problem where this arguement even comes from is that 14 CFR 61.51 Pilot Logbooks does not actual say you must BE THE PIC to LOG "Pilot In Command" Time. In my head, it is not very smart on the part of the law making body that made this rule but whatever.

As for my, more or less, "opinion," I believe you may log PIC time EVEN THOUGH you are not actually the designated PIC for that leg or flight.

My reason comes from... 61.51

(e) Logging pilot-in-command flight time: A sport, recreational, private, commercial, or airline transport pilot may log pilot in command flight time for flights...
When the pilot is the sole manipulator of the controls of an aircraft for which the pilot is rated, or has sport pilot privileges for that category and class of aircraft, if the aircraft class rating is appropriate;

To try to put normal word to this rule...
-This basically means that a pilot (commercial/private etc) may log PIC time WHENEVER YOU...

1. Are the SOLE MANIPULATOR (pilot flying I guess is the term) of the aircraft AND...
2. You are rated in that airplane (Pilot license with appropriate Cat/Class Rating)

Finally, in this situation, EVEN THOUGH you are NOT ACTUALLY THE PIC, you MAY still log pilot in command time because...
1. You are the sole manipulator and...
2. You have a license with an ASEL rating.

Anyways, remember....this is all IMHO

Cloudchaser

Well I emailed the Chief Pilot and got his thoughts. He just sent me a very simple response "Log the time PIC when you are the manipulator of the flight controls."

And I have taken an SIC checkride for 135 in the last 12 months, so that is a non-issue.

I think i'll end up logging it as PIC and it will come down to how good I can explain it in future interviews.

Oh and a random fact the caravan is a breeze to fly, could see people getting very complacent in that.

Cloudchaser

So here is another question then.

If I log the time that I am flying as PIC, on the legs that I don't fly should I log them as SIC time?

The ops specs require an SIC onboard, even though the caravan is good for single pilot so that is another point of confusion for me. I think it would look weird in the logbook for a 6 hour trip to have 3 hours of PIC and 3 hours of SIC.

Any new thoughts on that topic?

NoyGonnaDoIt

Like PIC time in the multi-pilot situation, the regs allow loging SIC time in one of two situations: the aircraft requires more than one pilot or the operation requires more than one pilot.

If the OpSpecs require (that's require not just permit) an SIC then "more than one pilot is required under ... the regulations under which the flight is being conducted," permitting the logging of SIC time under 61.51(f).

On that 3 and 3, nothing at all wrong with it. But remember that each basis for logging time under the regs stands on its own. If your time qualifies as night, dual received, instrument cross-country and multi, then you can log all of them. Likewise, there's no reason (other than it looking a bit weirder than even the 3 and 3) that you can log 6 hours of SIC (acting as SIC in an op requiring more than one pilot) and 3 hours of PIC (sole manipulator of the controls) on that 6 hour flight.

Whether you might run into someone along the way that just doesn't like that is another issue. Read a number of logging threads and you'll find references to all sorts of people who don't like the logging that the FAA allows.