KDUA

This sounds crazy, but 135 operatores are in danger. Due to the pilot shortage we are going to face very soon(or we are facing right now) it will get worst. They need to turn to FAA and tell FAA guys to reduce the minimums for 135 IFR operations.

Regionals are picking every pilot in the market and it just started it will get worst, or just take a look at the regional forum in this website. The only thing you hear is that "I have an interview with xxx coming up what do I need to prepare for!!!!


Good luck to all you guys

theskyisclear

You have to compare appples to apples. Remmember that you are a captain if you are flying PIC Single pilot IFR 135 operation. At least I was and there is no Captain in the Regionals that is paid the slave salaries that the 135 companies pay their Captains. You are comparing your 135 Captain salary with what an entry FO makes at the regionals but that is not the same. As Captain in 135 operation you are totally responsable for the operation of your aircraft and have to do the work equal to what both pilots in the cockpit of a regional do and without FMS or AP. A 135 PIC should be paid even more than a Captain in the regional because he has no FO to assist him, he has old equipment, has to handfly all the time, work nights, load and unload, etc. I took all the **** when I was doing it but I was aware that I was a slave. To do it and not even see the reality of it is bad. If you make more than what the lowest paid Captain make in the Regionals then your company will have no problems finding pilots but I have not seen any 135 company being that fair yet.

Ziggy

I will have to disagree. For me pay, is pay. And sitting right seat doesn't protect your ticket from FAA actions. Part 135 captains for the most part are entry level jobs, as is FO for the regionals. I fly 135 because of the starting wages. If regionals were forced to hire pilots with the same minimum qualifications as 135 operators then they would have to pay comparible wages.

blastboy

Single man IFR Metro pilot, are ya? Mama mia!

theskyisclear

First.......Being responsable for the flight was not ment being responsable for FAA tickets. FAA tickets has nothing to do with what I wrote. I make sure I never have to deal with FAA tickets if I am a 135 PIC or a 121 FO and that is by making sure I do not brake any rules at least not intentionally or that I would be aware of and that is for example by telling the 135 boss "NO, I wont fly in those conditions or without that working and NO, I wont accept not writing that up until I get to where you want me to be to write it up", etc. I know how 135 operators work and I can agree that they can easely make you get in trouble with the FAA but if you have caracter and just refuse to sell you safety values then you will do fine even if you have to give up your 135 slave job. That is just integrity and every pilot should have it and make sure they do not even have to think about it.

What I ment by being responsable is that you alone are in charge of the whole operation as a 135 PIC meaning having to deal with the whole work load alone while you share the workload with another crew member in 121.

135 PIC being an entry level job? at 1200 hours minimum? and all the other requirements? I think you are from some 135 operation management trying to attract pilots because if you really are a 135 pilot you would not say that a 135 PIC position is an entry level job. An entry level job is CFI, traffic watch, etc with much lower requirements and furthermore, You will have a hard time getting to a mayor airline from a 135 operation without passing the 121 regional stage.

If you fly 135 because of the low starting wages at the Regionals and do not care that you have to work 10 times harder in 135 operation for a few extra dollars and in much worse equipment risking you life many nights because the operational interest comes before safety and if you like duty time all night and not having a day life then you are perfect for the 135 slave operations.

If you have 1200 hours today and you go to the 135 operation it is because you did not make it getting in to the 121 regionals. The interviews at the 135 operators are jokes comparing to 121 regional interviews. Everybody know that if you go to the 121 regionals you aim for a Captain position even if you start as an FO and you aim for the future Captain salary and that hoping for upgrade as fast as possible but you have to make it at the interview or there will only be 135 operation for you.

I believe that you should be paid according to the work load, duty time and work enviroment and taking all that into considaration then a 135 single IFR PIC should be paid at least 10K per month or much more than a 121 FO. I know, I know, no 135 company would afford it but all that have worked all night in icing condition handflying for many hours alone fighting weather and freezing like hell knows what I am talking about.

Don't shoot yourself in the foot by saying you are satisfied with the 135 salary. You are worth much more and should be paid much more and much more than a 121 start FO. I preffer lower salary working as FO than better pay as a 135 PIC working 10 times more and under terrible conditions. I am not willing to sell my safety values for some 135 DO wants to make a few extra dollars so I know after have worked as 135 PIC that 135 is not for me but I take my hat of for the ones that fly 135 because I have been there and done it and know what it takes.

Ewfflyer

Where's my gun, because I'm more than satisfied with my salary. I'm getting $40k/yr pay right now to fly a C-310. Now do you want to compare my tasty oranges to your sour grapes?

Here's once again another issue, I like to stay positive on. Now our new guys only get $27k/yr pay, with a generous pay rate increase at your 6-mo. check ride. So yeah, its' a lower level professional job, but our equipement isn't the worst out there either to make it hell. All but one of our planes is IFR GPS. 50% have Radar, 25% have a strike finder. The other ones if you're flying into weather, you can use the Garmin 396 w/ XM weather. I'm sorry for all those that have "bad" experience in the 135 world, but in the end, I guarantee you'll agree that it made you a better pilot regardless.

Ziggy

Sky Clear:
I will concede a couple of points to you. That if you are NOW a 1200 hr pilot and coming to a 135 operator then most likely you have been turned down by a fair share of regionals. However, our interview process is not lax, we have to be very selective of the candidates we put into our planes. We are a large 135 operator and do not want the bad publicity of some below standard pilot flying himself into a mountain side.
I came to my job before the hiring boom at the regionals. I have friends tell me every day to come over to their side, be an RJ captain in 24 months. But I cannot justify a 60% paycut to my wife or myself.
I would never be so egotistical as to say my job is hard. It's not, I'm just have enough experience to know what I'm doing and do it well. As any pilot should be.
I don't consider CFI to be an entry level position. I consider that to be an extension of the flight training. The best way to learn a subject is to teach it.
I have never been accused of being management, buy hey you want to, I'll but that feather in my hat. Management actually has a hard job, just talk to them someday. Ask them what their daily problems are.
I get paid industry average for what I do, and I consider it fair. That's all I ask, of course I could alway use more money.

Of course you are correct that it really is hard to go from a 135 operator to a 121 National or legacy airline, but not impossible. I know pilots who've ended up at SWA, CAL, Cathey Pacific, and most going to the Fract's.

theskyisclear

Thank you both Ziggy and Ewflyer for good answers with points and for keeping the level high and I mean it. I am not being sarcastic in any way.
It shows that you have both a great attitude even if you disagree with others opinions.

I am the first to admit that there is no better training than 135 IFR single pilot night operations. It makes you a hell of a pilot in short time but it can also give you bad habits for life.

Now, I do not talk about 135 pilots that are paid 40K and above. All that is really rare. Most pilots in 135 I know fly PA-31, Chieftan, C-421, C-310, AC50 or any other light twin without radar, autopilot or any other helping stuff and most of them are paid 18 to 28K per year for sometimes working all night 5 days per week. I have never met any C-310 pilot that are paid even close to 40k and if you are then Wow! I understand that you both are satiesfied with your salaries if you are in 40K and above but you both are not the general example of the 135 salary or equipment. You are however at the top of the 135 salary and will never be able to make above 65K no matter how many years you fly cargo in light twins but a regional pilot that upgrades to Captain will eventually make much more. Not many are at the 135 level that you guys are at and it takes for most pilots a lot of years to get there if they ever. I worked in a company that paid 1700 per month the first six months for you working 10 - 12 hours night shift, loading, unloading many times per night, freezing your as of, pressuring you to fly in the worst conditions etc for less than $8 per hour. That is for me abuse and I believe that most of the pilots in 135 operations are or have been in simmilar conditions.

If the 135 operators wants to survive they will have no other choice than take the left overs, meaning the pilots that do not get in to the Regionals. The salaries at the 135 may be better for a few pilots but the conditions are terrible and most Commercial pilots fly because they want to get to the airlines. Very few dream of being a "freight dog". Even back in time when I was flying 135 in Texas people saw the 135 freight pilots as a bit strange personalities and I heard a Chief pilot (in a charter company) give a coment once like "no wonder he is a freight dog" about a pilot he did not think so high of and that was attending his ground school. I do not share those values but what I mean is that it is not the regular dream to be a "freight dog for life" while being a passenger Airline pilot is the most common dream around and if you work as a freight dog you should not be abused but paid well like Ziggy and Ewflyer are. Sadly very few 135 light twin cargo pilots are. I am actually defending the rights of the 135 light twin cargo pilots in general and also my opinion if taken the right way would help the 135 type of operation to survive. If the 135 operators do not change the view they have about their light twin cargo pilots and do not increase both salaries in general and conditions they will all soon (much sooner than most are aware of) be out of business.

de727ups

"If you have 1200 hours today and you go to the 135 operation it is because you did not make it getting in to the 121 regionals."

Not really, some people want to make more money at first. Others want a quicker route to PIC turbine. The 1000 PIC turbine could be had in the third year at Amfight while it might take five to even upgrade at Eagle. Some people like the schedule. I think I could find a niche at 135 freight I'd like much better than a typical 121 regional schedule. To each his own.

I do hope pay goes up at 135 freight, though. It's long overdue.

GauleyPilot

Hey Skyisclear,

I have to stand with the people who are satisfied working 135. I have great working conditions, well maintained equipment, and good pay. I enjoy it very much.

I respect your point of view, but I think some people chose 121, 135 or 91 based on their own life needs/wants. Some 135 people never even considered applying for a 121 job.

Understand that I have respect for my 121 brothers and sisters across the airport, but am indeed happy where I am at.