Passing on the flow Q?
06-17-2019, 09:00 AM
#41
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Joined APC: Sep 2016
Posts: 155
Originally Posted by chrisreedrules
If they pull flow their regional feed begins to collapse because there will be a big exodus. And it would be literally counter to everything the industry is moving towards these days.
This career in general is a gamble. It’s a gamble to wait around at a regional waiting to flow. BUT, if you’re a civilian and your goal is AA then this is it unless you were an astronaut. The faster we can move on the more certainty we can have in a stable career. The decision boiled down to its simplest form is this:
-Do I want to have the best QOL possible while I’m at my regional for (hopefully) no more than 6-7 years at the expense of possibly being here a few years longer than I absolutely have to?
-Do I want to get out of my regional and on to what is infinitely better than SAP or anything “good” about my regional as fast as humanly possible?
This career in general is a gamble. It’s a gamble to wait around at a regional waiting to flow. BUT, if you’re a civilian and your goal is AA then this is it unless you were an astronaut. The faster we can move on the more certainty we can have in a stable career. The decision boiled down to its simplest form is this:
-Do I want to have the best QOL possible while I’m at my regional for (hopefully) no more than 6-7 years at the expense of possibly being here a few years longer than I absolutely have to?
-Do I want to get out of my regional and on to what is infinitely better than SAP or anything “good” about my regional as fast as humanly possible?
A mass exodus to where?
06-17-2019, 09:01 AM
#42
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Joined APC: Feb 2012
Position: CRJ FO
Posts: 4,599
Originally Posted by SeaHunt
What prevents the company from building better quality/more efficient trips now?
06-17-2019, 09:09 AM
#43
On Reserve
Joined APC: Jun 2019
Posts: 16
Originally Posted by chrisreedrules
For about 25-35% of the pilot group. The top 25% wouldn’t see a ton of change to their schedules and they could arguably be better. The bottom 40% are the ones who will benefit the most. Overall, PBS is a QOL concession for some, but for the majority it would not be.
Personally I think the goal of a regional is to get your experience and get out. If it’s a nice comfortable place to call home for a while that’s fine, but that’s not the goal. If PBS comes and they offer us 1% /month flow and other additional contract improvements I don’t see a reason not to.
Ideally you will enjoy SAP for about 4-5 years of your career. No other carrier really has anything like it in the form that the SAP at PSA exists. It’s great. It can’t be beat. But you aren’t going to have it the next 20-35 years of your career. And personally I’d rather spend more time on the seniority list at the place I’m going to spend 20-30 years building my 401K and enjoying the benefits of a REAL contract and REAL pay than I am worried about 4-5 years of SAP.
Flown increasing to 1% /month means flowing to mainline 2-3 years sooner for the most junior on the seniority list and 2-3 months sooner for those on top.
Personally I think the goal of a regional is to get your experience and get out. If it’s a nice comfortable place to call home for a while that’s fine, but that’s not the goal. If PBS comes and they offer us 1% /month flow and other additional contract improvements I don’t see a reason not to.
Ideally you will enjoy SAP for about 4-5 years of your career. No other carrier really has anything like it in the form that the SAP at PSA exists. It’s great. It can’t be beat. But you aren’t going to have it the next 20-35 years of your career. And personally I’d rather spend more time on the seniority list at the place I’m going to spend 20-30 years building my 401K and enjoying the benefits of a REAL contract and REAL pay than I am worried about 4-5 years of SAP.
Flown increasing to 1% /month means flowing to mainline 2-3 years sooner for the most junior on the seniority list and 2-3 months sooner for those on top.
2. I know plenty of people at airlines with PBS. Most of them have been there for almost 2 years or more, and can’t get anything better than 75/ month 11 days off. People think they’ll get so much better QOL but you really won’t especially if you’re a commuter.
3. People saying “I’ve been CLT based and can’t hold a line” well then go to DCA! Or CVG! Or DAY! Etc! It’s worth it! You have the ability to get off reserve but aren’t, that’s not something to take concessions for! /vote in something that will decrease our QOL DRASTICALLY. SAP is not something we should be considering getting rid of.
4. Yes regionals are a stepping stone but you’re still going to be here most likely for 4 years at least, more if you flow, and probably more if you want a legacy/FedEx etc. The industry can take a downturn at any moment and then you’re stuck at a regional as well, so to sacrifice QOL when you could be here for 4-8 years total is not smart imo.
People think PBS will make their lives better, well go talk to other people who have PBS and compare it to SAP then.
06-17-2019, 09:24 AM
#44
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Joined APC: Feb 2012
Position: CRJ FO
Posts: 4,599
Originally Posted by Aviationaviator
1. AA already wants us to flow more per month. WHY would we give concessions in order to get that. The cards are in our hands.
2. I know plenty of people at airlines with PBS. Most of them have been there for almost 2 years or more, and can’t get anything better than 75/ month 11 days off. People think they’ll get so much better QOL but you really won’t especially if you’re a commuter.
3. People saying “I’ve been CLT based and can’t hold a line” well then go to DCA! Or CVG! Or DAY! Etc! It’s worth it! You have the ability to get off reserve but aren’t, that’s not something to take concessions for! /vote in something that will decrease our QOL DRASTICALLY. SAP is not something we should be considering getting rid of.
4. Yes regionals are a stepping stone but you’re still going to be here most likely for 4 years at least, more if you flow, and probably more if you want a legacy/FedEx etc. The industry can take a downturn at any moment and then you’re stuck at a regional as well, so to sacrifice QOL when you could be here for 4-8 years total is not smart imo.
People think PBS will make their lives better, well go talk to other people who have PBS and compare it to SAP then.
2. I know plenty of people at airlines with PBS. Most of them have been there for almost 2 years or more, and can’t get anything better than 75/ month 11 days off. People think they’ll get so much better QOL but you really won’t especially if you’re a commuter.
3. People saying “I’ve been CLT based and can’t hold a line” well then go to DCA! Or CVG! Or DAY! Etc! It’s worth it! You have the ability to get off reserve but aren’t, that’s not something to take concessions for! /vote in something that will decrease our QOL DRASTICALLY. SAP is not something we should be considering getting rid of.
4. Yes regionals are a stepping stone but you’re still going to be here most likely for 4 years at least, more if you flow, and probably more if you want a legacy/FedEx etc. The industry can take a downturn at any moment and then you’re stuck at a regional as well, so to sacrifice QOL when you could be here for 4-8 years total is not smart imo.
People think PBS will make their lives better, well go talk to other people who have PBS and compare it to SAP then.
And it doesn’t change my main point which is great QOL at a regional is still a regional. I think most would rather gtfo sooner rather than later.
And if PBS comes with a good min day and rigs you can believe it will most likely incentivize the company to utilize their pilots efficiently. And no one is talking about getting rid of the SAP completely. The SAP is as much a recruiting tool for PSA as it is a QOL tool for the pilots. We will most likely continue to have a SAP of some kind.
The devil is in the details with PBS. If you look at companies with bad QOL and PBS there may be reasons for that. As we continue to move towards a 2-class fleet and expand our flying a little further westward you’ll likely see our average stage lengths increase. Which would make it much more feasible to have Republic-like schedules of 15-18 off and 80-90 hours of credit.
06-17-2019, 09:31 AM
#45
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Joined APC: Feb 2012
Position: CRJ FO
Posts: 4,599
It’s also worth mentioning that the other legacies seem to be tightening their pool of applicants. United is seemingly moving towards preferential interview programs with its regional partners. Delta has Endeavor. And much of the rest are filled with military. I would expect this trend to continue. Not to mention future mergers of LCCs etc negating them hiring off the street.
Despite the attrition coming in the next few years at the legacies I think we may actually see outside attrition Decrease at the regionals as airlines move to secure their relatively cheap regional flying through incentives and interview/flow programs. We’ve already seen a pretty dramatic drop in attrition here after the new pay.
Working to increase the flow would be smart.
Despite the attrition coming in the next few years at the legacies I think we may actually see outside attrition Decrease at the regionals as airlines move to secure their relatively cheap regional flying through incentives and interview/flow programs. We’ve already seen a pretty dramatic drop in attrition here after the new pay.
Working to increase the flow would be smart.
06-17-2019, 09:43 AM
#46
On Reserve
Joined APC: Jun 2019
Posts: 16
Originally Posted by chrisreedrules
Many airlines with PBS have great schedules too.
And it doesn’t change my main point which is great QOL at a regional is still a regional. I think most would rather gtfo sooner rather than later.
And if PBS comes with a good min day and rigs you can believe it will most likely incentivize the company to utilize their pilots efficiently. And no one is talking about getting rid of the SAP completely. The SAP is as much a recruiting tool for PSA as it is a QOL tool for the pilots. We will most likely continue to have a SAP of some kind.
The devil is in the details with PBS. If you look at companies with bad QOL and PBS there may be reasons for that. As we continue to move towards a 2-class fleet and expand our flying a little further westward you’ll likely see our average stage lengths increase. Which would make it much more feasible to have Republic-like schedules of 15-18 off and 80-90 hours of credit.
And it doesn’t change my main point which is great QOL at a regional is still a regional. I think most would rather gtfo sooner rather than later.
And if PBS comes with a good min day and rigs you can believe it will most likely incentivize the company to utilize their pilots efficiently. And no one is talking about getting rid of the SAP completely. The SAP is as much a recruiting tool for PSA as it is a QOL tool for the pilots. We will most likely continue to have a SAP of some kind.
The devil is in the details with PBS. If you look at companies with bad QOL and PBS there may be reasons for that. As we continue to move towards a 2-class fleet and expand our flying a little further westward you’ll likely see our average stage lengths increase. Which would make it much more feasible to have Republic-like schedules of 15-18 off and 80-90 hours of credit.
2. “SAP of some kind” “we could have Republic-like schedules”
You want to be like Republic why? Do you know how long their reserve and upgrade times are? And by the way they have “sap of some kind” and it’s reserve grid dependent and favors the senior guys. Yes their second round sap is first come first serve but again reserve grid dependent.
What we have is better and we should not get caught up in “the grass might be greener” mindset with regards to PBS.
06-17-2019, 09:53 AM
#47
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Joined APC: Feb 2012
Position: CRJ FO
Posts: 4,599
Originally Posted by Aviationaviator
1 “Great qol at a regional is still a regional.” So who cares about what contract we have right cuz it’s just a regional and you’re definitely gonna get hired somewhere else soon anyway 😒. AA already wants us to flow more and I don’t want to give up SAP for 9 more people flowing per month.
2. “SAP of some kind” “we could have Republic-like schedules”
You want to be like Republic why? Do you know how long their reserve and upgrade times are? And by the way they have “sap of some kind” and it’s reserve grid dependent and favors the senior guys. Yes their second round sap is first come first serve but again reserve grid dependent.
What we have is better and we should not get caught up in “the grass might be greener” mindset.
2. “SAP of some kind” “we could have Republic-like schedules”
You want to be like Republic why? Do you know how long their reserve and upgrade times are? And by the way they have “sap of some kind” and it’s reserve grid dependent and favors the senior guys. Yes their second round sap is first come first serve but again reserve grid dependent.
What we have is better and we should not get caught up in “the grass might be greener” mindset.
I like SAP. It’s one of the reasons I came to PSA. And nowhere in my replies above did I imply that I don’t care about our contract and that I think it shouldn’t matter because we’re mostly all here as a stepping stone. Just because I think PBS and enhanced career progression is worth giving up our SAP in its current form for the majority of the pilots here at PSA doesn’t mean I don’t care.
This is just my opinion but I have heard the specific words, “a predictable path for more growth”. SAP isn’t that when we start the month with roughly 7-8% of our flying in open time and after SAP over 25% of our flying is left in open time. That’s why almost half this pilot group is on reserve. We are essentially 2 different airlines. One on reserve with bad QOL and one with excellent schedule flexibility and pay opportunities.
PBS would make it far more efficient and easier to continue the growth here. And I think that plus increased flow and reduced time on reserve is a big win for nearly every pilot at PSA. I think PBS will come with a lot more than just increases to the flow...
06-17-2019, 10:24 AM
#48
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Joined APC: Feb 2012
Position: CRJ FO
Posts: 4,599
Originally Posted by Duck Sausage
A mass exodus to where?
06-17-2019, 10:38 AM
#49
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Joined APC: Sep 2016
Posts: 155
Originally Posted by Aviationaviator
1. AA already wants us to flow more per month. WHY would we give concessions in order to get that. The cards are in our hands.
2. I know plenty of people at airlines with PBS. Most of them have been there for almost 2 years or more, and can’t get anything better than 75/ month 11 days off. People think they’ll get so much better QOL but you really won’t especially if you’re a commuter.
3. People saying “I’ve been CLT based and can’t hold a line” well then go to DCA! Or CVG! Or DAY! Etc! It’s worth it! You have the ability to get off reserve but aren’t, that’s not something to take concessions for! /vote in something that will decrease our QOL DRASTICALLY. SAP is not something we should be considering getting rid of.
4. Yes regionals are a stepping stone but you’re still going to be here most likely for 4 years at least, more if you flow, and probably more if you want a legacy/FedEx etc. The industry can take a downturn at any moment and then you’re stuck at a regional as well, so to sacrifice QOL when you could be here for 4-8 years total is not smart imo.
People think PBS will make their lives better, well go talk to other people who have PBS and compare it to SAP then.
2. I know plenty of people at airlines with PBS. Most of them have been there for almost 2 years or more, and can’t get anything better than 75/ month 11 days off. People think they’ll get so much better QOL but you really won’t especially if you’re a commuter.
3. People saying “I’ve been CLT based and can’t hold a line” well then go to DCA! Or CVG! Or DAY! Etc! It’s worth it! You have the ability to get off reserve but aren’t, that’s not something to take concessions for! /vote in something that will decrease our QOL DRASTICALLY. SAP is not something we should be considering getting rid of.
4. Yes regionals are a stepping stone but you’re still going to be here most likely for 4 years at least, more if you flow, and probably more if you want a legacy/FedEx etc. The industry can take a downturn at any moment and then you’re stuck at a regional as well, so to sacrifice QOL when you could be here for 4-8 years total is not smart imo.
People think PBS will make their lives better, well go talk to other people who have PBS and compare it to SAP then.
Glad to see not every one here has their head in the clouds!
06-17-2019, 11:53 AM
#50
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Joined APC: May 2007
Posts: 373
Originally Posted by chrisreedrules
There are actually many good lines. The problem is that with line bidding the company has to build lines that don’t necessarily meet anyone’s needs but there’s. I average about 12-14 days off and about 90-98 credit each month. With our accelerated pay it’s usually about 105-110 credit. And I’m a Junior R1 in base. I personally would prefer PBS because it would likely mean I don’t spend an entire day trying to SAP to get the schedule I want.
If you’re the junior R1 holder in base, you’re going to get stuck with 12 days off with 75 hours for a looong time under PBS. PBS is designed to improve things for the company, but it’s sold down the river to the pilot group as a benefit.
Again with the results of LOA 14 fresh in my mind, I don’t have much faith that this would be implemented in such a way that results on an improvement to QOL over what we have.
If anything, this is a classic Jurassic Park “Clever Girl” scenario.
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