Passing on the flow Q?
06-17-2019, 12:05 PM
#51
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Joined APC: Sep 2016
Posts: 155
Originally Posted by chrisreedrules
It’s also worth mentioning that the other legacies seem to be tightening their pool of applicants. United is seemingly moving towards preferential interview programs with its regional partners. Delta has Endeavor. And much of the rest are filled with military. I would expect this trend to continue. Not to mention future mergers of LCCs etc negating them hiring off the street.
Despite the attrition coming in the next few years at the legacies I think we may actually see outside attrition Decrease at the regionals as airlines move to secure their relatively cheap regional flying through incentives and interview/flow programs. We’ve already seen a pretty dramatic drop in attrition here after the new pay.
Working to increase the flow would be smart.
Despite the attrition coming in the next few years at the legacies I think we may actually see outside attrition Decrease at the regionals as airlines move to secure their relatively cheap regional flying through incentives and interview/flow programs. We’ve already seen a pretty dramatic drop in attrition here after the new pay.
Working to increase the flow would be smart.
So no max exodus like you said because they need us?
Foot in mouth.
Are you a junior rd 1 captain? I really don’t know why you advocate any of these points. You leave sooner than later and can have the schedule you want if so. If you want to gtfo so bad then why are you still here?
You don’t think the rest of us have our apps out and college degrees with money spent at the job fairs? Come one man!
06-17-2019, 12:23 PM
#52
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Joined APC: Sep 2016
Posts: 155
Originally Posted by chrisreedrules
Junior pilots would likely go to other regionals or LCCs that offer better pay/QOL than PSA or the other WOs. PSA would likely see less attrition from such an event than say Piedmont and Envoy. Senior pilots would try a lot harder to get on at legacies etc. Some are trying hard right now to do just that, but the reality is that with the pay increases and talk of increasing the flow here at PSA attrition is slowing.
Dude, really? Then let them!? That’s their mistake. T
06-17-2019, 04:30 PM
#53
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Joined APC: Jul 2008
Posts: 425
The reason reserve is long isn't because of line bidding. It's because the rapid growth has ended. Until there is significant growth (replacing 200's with 900's isn't growth), or significant attrition, reserve will take a while to get through.
That's what happens when you show up at the end of the hiring wave.
That's what happens when you show up at the end of the hiring wave.
06-17-2019, 05:24 PM
#54
On Reserve
Joined APC: Oct 2017
Posts: 16
Originally Posted by Stratapilot
If you’re the junior R1 holder in base, you’re going to get stuck with 12 days off with 75 hours for a looong time under PBS. PBS is designed to improve things for the company, but it’s sold down the river to the pilot group as a benefit.
Again with the results of LOA 14 fresh in my mind, I don’t have much faith that this would be implemented in such a way that results on an improvement to QOL over what we have.
If anything, this is a classic Jurassic Park “Clever Girl” scenario.
Again with the results of LOA 14 fresh in my mind, I don’t have much faith that this would be implemented in such a way that results on an improvement to QOL over what we have.
If anything, this is a classic Jurassic Park “Clever Girl” scenario.
06-17-2019, 05:41 PM
#55
Banned
Joined APC: May 2017
Posts: 2,012
Originally Posted by SeaHunt
I guess this is why I don't understand why the company can't just build better quality 4 days now? Why does PBS have to be the way to do it? Seems to me the norm could be 25 hour 4 days built now and we SAP around those. Am I missing something?
PBS by itself isn't going to magically make trips higher credit. It is going to allocate current trips more efficiently. (ie you're not going to get a trip July 6-9 if you have training July 8-10)
If trips that pay 25 hours are the norm, that will require something other than PBS.
06-17-2019, 05:46 PM
#56
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Sep 2016
Posts: 155
Originally Posted by irrelevant
The reason reserve is long isn't because of line bidding. It's because the rapid growth has ended. Until there is significant growth (replacing 200's with 900's isn't growth), or significant attrition, reserve will take a while to get through.
That's what happens when you show up at the end of the hiring wave.
That's what happens when you show up at the end of the hiring wave.
Exactly.....
06-17-2019, 05:53 PM
#57
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Joined APC: Feb 2012
Position: CRJ FO
Posts: 4,599
It’s a simple numbers game. It has nothing to do with the ability to simply, “build better schedules”. We fly what we are given. Some lines are great, others not so much. And if you think our lines are bad you should see the lines at Piedmont and Envoy.
Before SAP we have 7-8% of the flying AA wants us to do left in open time that needs to be covered. After SAP that number is usually around 25% left in open time. Usual metrics dictate you want enough reserves to cover open time flying plus double that for contingencies.
So let’s say you had 8% of your flying left in open time. By using these metrics you would likely have roughly 20% of your pilot group on reserve. But with 25% of your flying in open time, you need at least 25% of your pilot group just to cover the open time flying. Then what about contingencies? Which is why you see over 40% of PSA’s pilot group on reserve.
Most companies, growth or not simply do not have that large a portion of their pilot group on reserve. It’s insanely inefficient. And it’s a good enough reason in and of itself to limit oneself from the constant month-to-month exposure that the SAP potentially yields by stopping growth at 150 aircraft from the perspective of mainline.
Holiday pay? That was a result of pilots SAPping away all their holiday flying a few years back. Accelerated pay? That is a result of pilots SAPping away their flying. All seem good to us as pilots but from the perspective of management they are just bandaids on the underlying problem.
Before SAP we have 7-8% of the flying AA wants us to do left in open time that needs to be covered. After SAP that number is usually around 25% left in open time. Usual metrics dictate you want enough reserves to cover open time flying plus double that for contingencies.
So let’s say you had 8% of your flying left in open time. By using these metrics you would likely have roughly 20% of your pilot group on reserve. But with 25% of your flying in open time, you need at least 25% of your pilot group just to cover the open time flying. Then what about contingencies? Which is why you see over 40% of PSA’s pilot group on reserve.
Most companies, growth or not simply do not have that large a portion of their pilot group on reserve. It’s insanely inefficient. And it’s a good enough reason in and of itself to limit oneself from the constant month-to-month exposure that the SAP potentially yields by stopping growth at 150 aircraft from the perspective of mainline.
Holiday pay? That was a result of pilots SAPping away all their holiday flying a few years back. Accelerated pay? That is a result of pilots SAPping away their flying. All seem good to us as pilots but from the perspective of management they are just bandaids on the underlying problem.
06-18-2019, 12:36 AM
#58
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jul 2018
Posts: 449
Originally Posted by chrisreedrules
It’s a simple numbers game. It has nothing to do with the ability to simply, “build better schedules”. We fly what we are given. Some lines are great, others not so much. And if you think our lines are bad you should see the lines at Piedmont and Envoy.
Before SAP we have 7-8% of the flying AA wants us to do left in open time that needs to be covered. After SAP that number is usually around 25% left in open time. Usual metrics dictate you want enough reserves to cover open time flying plus double that for contingencies.
So let’s say you had 8% of your flying left in open time. By using these metrics you would likely have roughly 20% of your pilot group on reserve. But with 25% of your flying in open time, you need at least 25% of your pilot group just to cover the open time flying. Then what about contingencies? Which is why you see over 40% of PSA’s pilot group on reserve.
Most companies, growth or not simply do not have that large a portion of their pilot group on reserve. It’s insanely inefficient. And it’s a good enough reason in and of itself to limit oneself from the constant month-to-month exposure that the SAP potentially yields by stopping growth at 150 aircraft from the perspective of mainline.
Holiday pay? That was a result of pilots SAPping away all their holiday flying a few years back. Accelerated pay? That is a result of pilots SAPping away their flying. All seem good to us as pilots but from the perspective of management they are just bandaids on the underlying problem.
Before SAP we have 7-8% of the flying AA wants us to do left in open time that needs to be covered. After SAP that number is usually around 25% left in open time. Usual metrics dictate you want enough reserves to cover open time flying plus double that for contingencies.
So let’s say you had 8% of your flying left in open time. By using these metrics you would likely have roughly 20% of your pilot group on reserve. But with 25% of your flying in open time, you need at least 25% of your pilot group just to cover the open time flying. Then what about contingencies? Which is why you see over 40% of PSA’s pilot group on reserve.
Most companies, growth or not simply do not have that large a portion of their pilot group on reserve. It’s insanely inefficient. And it’s a good enough reason in and of itself to limit oneself from the constant month-to-month exposure that the SAP potentially yields by stopping growth at 150 aircraft from the perspective of mainline.
Holiday pay? That was a result of pilots SAPping away all their holiday flying a few years back. Accelerated pay? That is a result of pilots SAPping away their flying. All seem good to us as pilots but from the perspective of management they are just bandaids on the underlying problem.
Dayton will pretty regularly only have 4 maybe 5 round two lines, while the open time pot is absolutely overflowing with trips. The trips have to get covered one way or another, but it seems scheduling doesn't want to lose the absolute control they have when most of the pilots are on reserve.
06-18-2019, 03:33 AM
#59
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Joined APC: Sep 2016
Posts: 180
Perhaps an unintended consequence of so many pilots on reserve for so long is creating a bloc of people who will happily vote in favor of PBS? Nearly half of the FOs haven't experienced SAP yet and many CAs are years away from getting back to it.
06-18-2019, 04:03 AM
#60
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jan 2019
Posts: 377
Originally Posted by chrisreedrules
Before SAP we have 7-8% of the flying AA wants us to do left in open time that needs to be covered. After SAP that number is usually around 25% left in open time.
I've always had the feeling that people are attempting to maximize their days off, while still flying decently high credit trips. How many 22-24 4-day trips are in the open time pot when SAP opens vs when it closes? What about the 12-15 hour 4-days? I believe the union even said the survey they did eons ago (at this point) basically backed that up.
I understand the company also attempts to mitigate schedules that could potentially cause fatigue, etc, but it seems fairly clear (to me) why there's a sudden jump in open time afterward. I'm guessing not too many people are excited for a 4:50am show to fly 2 legs every day, spend almost 20 hours in a hotel each night, and get back late all for the privilege of earning 15 hours of pay.
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